I'm voting for McCain....

Leilani Garden

Leilani Garden

Well-Known Member
TheBrutalTruth said:
I suspect you are, and that I can respect (I also respect people that aren't afraid to engage in some name calling and giving honest/truthful answers.)

Though, I'm just a bit curious.

What do you think are the underlying causes of our society's problems?
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Well, this question was not directed at me, but I'll give it a stab. And then, I will explain why I think Obama's upbringing is nothing but a big plus.

What are the underlying causes of our society's problems? If you've ever read/studied anthropology, often times the answer is that once a given society stops being able to provide (by whatever means were "normal" in the first place for that particular culture), it begins to fall apart.

Here's an example. There are some people in Africa, aptly called the Ik people. They are in an area that is partly in Uganda, and partly in another nation (not sure, can't recall which one, at the moment). BEFORE the map makers (aka the Westerners) started to redraw map lines all over the globe, esp after WW2, Africa was full of nomadic people, the Iks being one of those cultures.

When the cartographers finished drawing map lines, where there had been none before, the Iks were no longer able to pick up and move when they needed to, and as they had been doing for ages. Nomadic people move their entire societies according to weather, season, etc. But when they could no longer cross the new map lines, their entire way of life was disrupted. What were they supposed to do? Just like that :::snapping fingers::::: they were, what? Supposed to learn how to stay in one spot, abandoning all they knew about survival?

And along with the abandonment of their previous survival lifestyle, the cultural aspects of their society went up in smoke, since most of it was related or at least rooted in their previous, unattainable nomadic ways.

What happened? They became utterly hateful people. They turned on each other. Parents even turned on their own children. It's almost instinct (but ALMOST) for parents to give food to their own children, rather than feed themselves, when supplies are low. How many parents here can attest to that? Even at, say, a picnic or something? If you're running low on something and the children like it and it's good for them, whatever, most parents will let their children have it, rather than eating it themselves.

Well, the Ik people's culture disintegrated so badly that parents would feed themselves before thinking of their own children's welfare and survival. Now, that part IS instinct: keep your children alive and healthy, spread your DNA as far and wide as possible, right? Not so for the Ik people. Their sorry situation has led to such horribly selfish and terribly damaging new cultural rules that they will probably be wiped out eventually.

So how's that relate to us? Well, we're failing all over the place. We've got a "melting pot" that doesn't really melt very well. We're fighting with each other over such a myriad clump of issues that people who would otherwise be able to be decent neighbors to each other are no longer; we are turning on each other. You can even see it on this thread, can't you? Look at the fighting and bitching and back biting and outright hatred after the '04 election.

We're failing the "weaker" members of our culture too: elders, children, minorities, etc. When it reaches a certain point, people become angry and start to toss out the window whatever values and ethics they may once have had. And when anger and frustration reach a certain level, well? The stuff hits the fan.

That's why, although I understand (to a certain extent) Vi's inclusion of child protective services in the "liberal fascist" box, I also want to shout from the rooftops: If we allow children to be tossed around, bounced around, left hungry, or to witness violence at home, or whatever, we're only going to pay for it later. We always do. Prisons are full of people who faced abandonment issues as children. They're also full of people who've known nothing but poverty their whole lives.

Where there is poverty, there will be crime. Where there is hatred, there will be crime. And where there is crime, there will be those in the upper classes who are angry too and point the finger at those on the lower end of the socioeconomic scale as the culprits . . .when, really, it's all of us.

It is NOT easy to solve, I'll give you that. And it's never going to be perfect, ever, not with a nation of this size and with so many different sub-cultures. So no, I'm not bitching just to bitch and point fingers (like we liberals are, sometimes rightly, accused of). What I'm saying is that if we want the highest standard of living, then we have to take into consideration ALL of the members of our culture. So? Child protective services, while sorely lacking in the proper resources to do their work, are important groups. So are some of the public assistance programs.

Hope that makes sense.

So what's this got to do with Obama? His mother was a cultural anthropologist. THAT impresses me. He grew up in some other cultures and was raised by a woman who earned a doctorate in cultural anthropology. This had to have rubbed off on him. It had to have. From what I've read, his mother was not "ideological" in the least. IOW, she didn't preach and stand on soap boxes; she lived what she believed: that all people and all culture have something to offer and that there are ways for us to understand what makes a given culture tick.

So. That's my take on it.

Link to a book about the Ik people. This is fascinating reading for anyone interested.

Amazon.com: The Mountain People: Colin M. Turnbull: Books

And here's a quote from the first review:

This anthropological classic is important on a number of levels. Leading by example, Turnbull provides a lesson for anthropology students about the bravery required to embraces one's biases, instead of just pretending they do not exist. On a deeper level, he chronicles the disintegration of a culture through starvation to reveal the human nature that underlies all cultures. He describes, through the story of one people, what all people are capable of in dire circumstances.
 
Leilani Garden

Leilani Garden

Well-Known Member
Brutal Truth wrote:

Obama - Attempts to appeal to the Whites, Mexicans and the Blacks with separate and different messages, because he wouldn't be able to convince all three to vote for him with the same message.

(along with a lot of other things--but I want to comment on this one in particular.)

Isn't that true of all high-profile politicians, for one thing? I mean, look at Bush. He was a good ole cowboy (from Maine, lmao); he's the baseball guy; he's the jackass pretending to have done service when he was really awol; he was the MBA who "understood" economics (the ownership society???), etc? They all do this.

BUT! Let's go back to Obama. My last post/blog entry, lol, mentioned cultural anthropology, right? If you ever get a chance to read some scholars in the field of linguistic anthropology, you'll find this term: code switching.

EVERYONE does this. When I go to the school to talk to administrators or coaches or teachers, I'm veddy veddy well spoken. When I chat with my elderly neighbors, I'm very ladylike. When I hang with my friends, I can curse like a sailor. When I'm talking to one of my children about the many topics we talk about, I'm still switching codes. When I am talking to a doctor in an ER, I am sure as hell not chatting like I do with my close friends. Talking to my aunts? Same thing.

I used to worry about this--am I a big fake? Answer: NO. Everyone does it. It's what we pick up from the many clues that people give out, without even knowing they are doing it.

MLK Jr is often cited as the most successful example of someone who knew, apparently innately, how to use code switching. He was great at it. When he was talking to "his" people, his vocabulary was different. When he had to talk to the majority, his voice changed, his vernacular changed, etc. He was a superhero in verbal/written communications.

Salespeople also do this, and those who are very good at it (which requires reading your "audience") are generally speaking pretty successful.

It's not wrong or fake to code switch. It's just plain old human communication. Like, at the airport, I don't have a pms meltdown and freak out if someone wants to question me about what's in my bags. But let that happen somewhere else, when I'm in the wrong mood? I might just lose my temper--because I know I have nothing to lose by doing so. At the airport, I'm reading the clues: behave; draw no attention to myself; cooperate and make sure that I am communicating this clearly with my choice of words and body language.

End of my input on Brutal Truth's astute observation. I just see it differently.

OH, btw, I've seen some of those clips of McCain losing his temper. He's either just really tired and sick of bullshit, or he has an anger problem that gets in HIS way of using code switching properly. Just something to think about . . . .
 
TheBrutalTruth

TheBrutalTruth

Well-Known Member
Leilani Garden said:
Well, this question was not directed at me, but I'll give it a stab. And then, I will explain why I think Obama's upbringing is nothing but a big plus.

What are the underlying causes of our society's problems? If you've ever read/studied anthropology, often times the answer is that once a given society stops being able to provide (by whatever means were "normal" in the first place for that particular culture), it begins to fall apart.

Here's an example. There are some people in Africa, aptly called the Ik people. They are in an area that is partly in Uganda, and partly in another nation (not sure, can't recall which one, at the moment). BEFORE the map makers (aka the Westerners) started to redraw map lines all over the globe, esp after WW2, Africa was full of nomadic people, the Iks being one of those cultures.

When the cartographers finished drawing map lines, where there had been none before, the Iks were no longer able to pick up and move when they needed to, and as they had been doing for ages. Nomadic people move their entire societies according to weather, season, etc. But when they could no longer cross the new map lines, their entire way of life was disrupted. What were they supposed to do? Just like that :::snapping fingers::::: they were, what? Supposed to learn how to stay in one spot, abandoning all they knew about survival?

And along with the abandonment of their previous survival lifestyle, the cultural aspects of their society went up in smoke, since most of it was related or at least rooted in their previous, unattainable nomadic ways.

What happened? They became utterly hateful people. They turned on each other. Parents even turned on their own children. It's almost instinct (but ALMOST) for parents to give food to their own children, rather than feed themselves, when supplies are low. How many parents here can attest to that? Even at, say, a picnic or something? If you're running low on something and the children like it and it's good for them, whatever, most parents will let their children have it, rather than eating it themselves.

Well, the Ik people's culture disintegrated so badly that parents would feed themselves before thinking of their own children's welfare and survival. Now, that part IS instinct: keep your children alive and healthy, spread your DNA as far and wide as possible, right? Not so for the Ik people. Their sorry situation has led to such horribly selfish and terribly damaging new cultural rules that they will probably be wiped out eventually.

So how's that relate to us? Well, we're failing all over the place. We've got a "melting pot" that doesn't really melt very well. We're fighting with each other over such a myriad clump of issues that people who would otherwise be able to be decent neighbors to each other are no longer; we are turning on each other. You can even see it on this thread, can't you? Look at the fighting and bitching and back biting and outright hatred after the '04 election.

We're failing the "weaker" members of our culture too: elders, children, minorities, etc. When it reaches a certain point, people become angry and start to toss out the window whatever values and ethics they may once have had. And when anger and frustration reach a certain level, well? The stuff hits the fan.

That's why, although I understand (to a certain extent) Vi's inclusion of child protective services in the "liberal fascist" box, I also want to shout from the rooftops: If we allow children to be tossed around, bounced around, left hungry, or to witness violence at home, or whatever, we're only going to pay for it later. We always do. Prisons are full of people who faced abandonment issues as children. They're also full of people who've known nothing but poverty their whole lives.

Where there is poverty, there will be crime. Where there is hatred, there will be crime. And where there is crime, there will be those in the upper classes who are angry too and point the finger at those on the lower end of the socioeconomic scale as the culprits . . .when, really, it's all of us.

It is NOT easy to solve, I'll give you that. And it's never going to be perfect, ever, not with a nation of this size and with so many different sub-cultures. So no, I'm not bitching just to bitch and point fingers (like we liberals are, sometimes rightly, accused of). What I'm saying is that if we want the highest standard of living, then we have to take into consideration ALL of the members of our culture. So? Child protective services, while sorely lacking in the proper resources to do their work, are important groups. So are some of the public assistance programs.

Hope that makes sense.

So what's this got to do with Obama? His mother was a cultural anthropologist. THAT impresses me. He grew up in some other cultures and was raised by a woman who earned a doctorate in cultural anthropology. This had to have rubbed off on him. It had to have. From what I've read, his mother was not "ideological" in the least. IOW, she didn't preach and stand on soap boxes; she lived what she believed: that all people and all culture have something to offer and that there are ways for us to understand what makes a given culture tick.

So. That's my take on it.

Link to a book about the Ik people. This is fascinating reading for anyone interested.

Amazon.com: The Mountain People: Colin M. Turnbull: Books

And here's a quote from the first review:

This anthropological classic is important on a number of levels. Leading by example, Turnbull provides a lesson for anthropology students about the bravery required to embraces one's biases, instead of just pretending they do not exist. On a deeper level, he chronicles the disintegration of a culture through starvation to reveal the human nature that underlies all cultures. He describes, through the story of one people, what all people are capable of in dire circumstances.
Click to expand...
The problem is that despite all these claims is that the problems that you were supposed to be "fixing" are worst than ever.

Those people that are in jail now, were children during the 70s and 80s, after the "Great Society" and its colossal debacle.

And yet, under the claim of Cultural Anthropology, you are telling some of us that we must throw our beliefs out the window, beliefs that we have espoused from the beginning of this country.

Beliefs that saw us rise from being the backwards colony of a "Great" power, and become a Great Power ourselves. The Only Great Power.

A nation can not be judged on how any one class of citizens is treated, it can only be judged on the degree of economic freedom, personal freedom and political freedom it provides.

Prior to the institution of the Income Tax you saw people rise up from extreme poverty and extreme illiteracy to the heights of Corporate Power.

Men like Henry Ford, who went from being a failed farmer to being the creator of a new Industry.

Vanderbilt, who dropped out of school at age 11, and would become one of the wealthiest men in the country.

“ If I had learned education, I would not have had time to learn anything else. ”Perhaps the lesson to be learned from these people is that Learning to often interferes with our true Education.

That, our desire to protect ourselves as left us as a callous drifting society where work is no longer valued, because it is easier to lay down.

There is a balance between doing Good and doing Evil, and that balance is when the middle class feels like it has been put in chains, and denied the ability to get ahead.

No, Socialism doesn't solve anything, it binds people down into ignorance, enforced poverty, and holds them down with chains.

Chains of their own laziness, and inability to think beyond when they are going to get their next check. It deprives them of the need to think ahead, and plan ahead.

Socialism is the destroyer of worlds, the death of humanity, the rotting religion of a dying people that have forgotten how to get ahead, the last spasm of a society that has forgotten what it means to be productful, and to exercise thrift.

A dying spasm of people that have forgotten what it means to be able to stand up on their own two feet, and tell the world, "I am human, and I will stand on my OWN TWO FEET!, instead of crawling on all fours like an animal."
 
TheBrutalTruth

TheBrutalTruth

Well-Known Member
Leilani Garden said:
Brutal Truth wrote:

Obama - Attempts to appeal to the Whites, Mexicans and the Blacks with separate and different messages, because he wouldn't be able to convince all three to vote for him with the same message.

(along with a lot of other things--but I want to comment on this one in particular.)

Isn't that true of all high-profile politicians, for one thing? I mean, look at Bush. He was a good ole cowboy (from Maine, lmao); he's the baseball guy; he's the jackass pretending to have done service when he was really awol; he was the MBA who "understood" economics (the ownership society???), etc? They all do this.

BUT! Let's go back to Obama. My last post/blog entry, lol, mentioned cultural anthropology, right? If you ever get a chance to read some scholars in the field of linguistic anthropology, you'll find this term: code switching.

EVERYONE does this. When I go to the school to talk to administrators or coaches or teachers, I'm veddy veddy well spoken. When I chat with my elderly neighbors, I'm very ladylike. When I hang with my friends, I can curse like a sailor. When I'm talking to one of my children about the many topics we talk about, I'm still switching codes. When I am talking to a doctor in an ER, I am sure as hell not chatting like I do with my close friends. Talking to my aunts? Same thing.

I used to worry about this--am I a big fake? Answer: NO. Everyone does it. It's what we pick up from the many clues that people give out, without even knowing they are doing it.

MLK Jr is often cited as the most successful example of someone who knew, apparently innately, how to use code switching. He was great at it. When he was talking to "his" people, his vocabulary was different. When he had to talk to the majority, his voice changed, his vernacular changed, etc. He was a superhero in verbal/written communications.

Salespeople also do this, and those who are very good at it (which requires reading your "audience") are generally speaking pretty successful.

It's not wrong or fake to code switch. It's just plain old human communication. Like, at the airport, I don't have a pms meltdown and freak out if someone wants to question me about what's in my bags. But let that happen somewhere else, when I'm in the wrong mood? I might just lose my temper--because I know I have nothing to lose by doing so. At the airport, I'm reading the clues: behave; draw no attention to myself; cooperate and make sure that I am communicating this clearly with my choice of words and body language.

End of my input on Brutal Truth's astute observation. I just see it differently.

OH, btw, I've seen some of those clips of McCain losing his temper. He's either just really tired and sick of bullshit, or he has an anger problem that gets in HIS way of using code switching properly. Just something to think about . . . .
Click to expand...
I know what you are speaking about, having done it myself, but I don't buy it.

The problem is that instead of actually talking straight, and being honest, Obama is lieing. His messages are inconsistent, and his entire campaign is built up on a fraud of being "Change."

Obama is not Change, Obama is the same old Socialist Democrat, running on the same old Socialist Platform, with the same old Socialist Slogans trying to appeal to the same disaffected people with the same old Socialist Message of promising to create a perfect society by stealing from one group (the "haves") and giving it to another group (the "have nots").

About the only consistency Obama has is his BS touting of "Change".
 
Leilani Garden

Leilani Garden

Well-Known Member
Hey Brutal, big surprise, eh? I disagree with just about everything you've written.

1. Our political processes encourage bullshitting, period. Play the game or lose. Kerry learned that too late in '04. The process encourages bullshitting and GREAT communication skills (and/or sneaky, shitty, below-the-belt mud-slinging) just like our tax system encourages cheating. If we can somehow manage to put a halt to both of those systemic institutions? We're all going to benefit.

FYI, it was considered very low down and uncouth during the first days our our republic to pander for votes. Look at this mess now. "Swiftboating" is now a household word. Crappy, huh?

2. You're mixing up communism and socialism. A capitalist society with elements of socialism tossed in is the best way for most of the people to get most of their needs taken care of. Obama is not a communist, trying to hurt those at the top. No way. But those tax cuts that BushCo pushed through (with the help of a house and senate all on the same page) were terribly damaging to ALL of us. Our debts are scary as all hell. SOMEONE has to pay for this gd train wreck.

Remember Bush One's campaign? "Read my lips. No new taxes." He HAD to raise taxes after the deficit spending Reagan did. It was the fault of Reagan and Bush One that he lost that '92 election to Clinton.

We simply cannot continue spending like we have and continue the diatribe on the poor. It's NOT their fault.

As for your comments on Ford, etc . . . what race were those guys? Uh-huh. Yes, I'm all for people making successes of themselves. You bet I am. But the BRUTAL TRUTH is that things are not exactly as they were in that time you mentioned (called the Guilded Age for a very good reason). We have a huge number of people who will not be able to take advantage of our so-called great society unless we can extend a helping hand to those who are capable. Scroll back a few pages for my take on the poetry of Thomas Gray: in this graveyard, there are some mute Miltons .. . unable to pull themselves out.

Re your comments on Carnegie and education. Yes. There are people are so educated and so incredibly savvy when it comes to business that they just bypass formal education. Madonna is a great example. These people are self-educated, and many of them simply have a gift that the rest of us envy--the ability to read markets and find their niches and take that ball and run with it, leaving most of us in their dust! How I wish I were one of them.

I won't back down, however, on my quest to get this nation better educated. Ford, Madonna? They are not your average folks. Most of us need instruction. And? This is just me . . . speaking from my heart: educating ourselves will make us better people.

I gotta go to bed. Nice chatting with you. Like when I chat with Vi, I don't agree with much at all of what you are saying, but I do respect your views because you are a reasonable person. And that's saying a lot, esp in this heated political climate.

Can we agree on this? Let's throw the lobbyists OUT. And by that, I mean all of them. What is good for the goose is good for the gander: that means even the Sierra Club, etc. If the big players can't lobby, then neither can the "little people's" lobbyists. Let the legislators do their jobs, which should NOT be looking for campaign funds.

Agree? Or no?

TTYL
 
tipsgnob

tipsgnob

New Member
Leilani Garden said:
Hey Brutal, big surprise, eh? I disagree with just about everything you've written.

1. Our political processes encourage bullshitting, period. Play the game or lose. Kerry learned that too late in '04. The process encourages bullshitting and GREAT communication skills (and/or sneaky, shitty, below-the-belt mud-slinging) just like our tax system encourages cheating. If we can somehow manage to put a halt to both of those systemic institutions? We're all going to benefit.

FYI, it was considered very low down and uncouth during the first days our our republic to pander for votes. Look at this mess now. "Swiftboating" is now a household word. Crappy, huh?

2. You're mixing up communism and socialism. A capitalist society with elements of socialism tossed in is the best way for most of the people to get most of their needs taken care of. Obama is not a communist, trying to hurt those at the top. No way. But those tax cuts that BushCo pushed through (with the help of a house and senate all on the same page) were terribly damaging to ALL of us. Our debts are scary as all hell. SOMEONE has to pay for this gd train wreck.

Remember Bush One's campaign? "Read my lips. No new taxes." He HAD to raise taxes after the deficit spending Reagan did. It was the fault of Reagan and Bush One that he lost that '92 election to Clinton.

We simply cannot continue spending like we have and continue the diatribe on the poor. It's NOT their fault.

As for your comments on Ford, etc . . . what race were those guys? Uh-huh. Yes, I'm all for people making successes of themselves. You bet I am. But the BRUTAL TRUTH is that things are not exactly as they were in that time you mentioned (called the Guilded Age for a very good reason). We have a huge number of people who will not be able to take advantage of our so-called great society unless we can extend a helping hand to those who are capable. Scroll back a few pages for my take on the poetry of Thomas Gray: in this graveyard, there are some mute Miltons .. . unable to pull themselves out.

Re your comments on Carnegie and education. Yes. There are people are so educated and so incredibly savvy when it comes to business that they just bypass formal education. Madonna is a great example. These people are self-educated, and many of them simply have a gift that the rest of us envy--the ability to read markets and find their niches and take that ball and run with it, leaving most of us in their dust! How I wish I were one of them.

I won't back down, however, on my quest to get this nation better educated. Ford, Madonna? They are not your average folks. Most of us need instruction. And? This is just me . . . speaking from my heart: educating ourselves will make us better people.

I gotta go to bed. Nice chatting with you. Like when I chat with Vi, I don't agree with much at all of what you are saying, but I do respect your views because you are a reasonable person. And that's saying a lot, esp in this heated political climate.

Can we agree on this? Let's throw the lobbyists OUT. And by that, I mean all of them. What is good for the goose is good for the gander: that means even the Sierra Club, etc. If the big players can't lobby, then neither can the "little people's" lobbyists. Let the legislators do their jobs, which should NOT be looking for campaign funds.

Agree? Or no?

TTYL
Click to expand...
wow...you type faster than you think....there fore you are...
 
TheBrutalTruth

TheBrutalTruth

Well-Known Member
Leilani Garden said:
Hey Brutal, big surprise, eh? I disagree with just about everything you've written.

1. Our political processes encourage bullshitting, period. Play the game or lose. Kerry learned that too late in '04. The process encourages bullshitting and GREAT communication skills (and/or sneaky, shitty, below-the-belt mud-slinging) just like our tax system encourages cheating. If we can somehow manage to put a halt to both of those systemic institutions? We're all going to benefit.

FYI, it was considered very low down and uncouth during the first days our our republic to pander for votes. Look at this mess now. "Swiftboating" is now a household word. Crappy, huh?

2. You're mixing up communism and socialism. A capitalist society with elements of socialism tossed in is the best way for most of the people to get most of their needs taken care of. Obama is not a communist, trying to hurt those at the top. No way. But those tax cuts that BushCo pushed through (with the help of a house and senate all on the same page) were terribly damaging to ALL of us. Our debts are scary as all hell. SOMEONE has to pay for this gd train wreck.

Remember Bush One's campaign? "Read my lips. No new taxes." He HAD to raise taxes after the deficit spending Reagan did. It was the fault of Reagan and Bush One that he lost that '92 election to Clinton.

We simply cannot continue spending like we have and continue the diatribe on the poor. It's NOT their fault.

As for your comments on Ford, etc . . . what race were those guys? Uh-huh. Yes, I'm all for people making successes of themselves. You bet I am. But the BRUTAL TRUTH is that things are not exactly as they were in that time you mentioned (called the Guilded Age for a very good reason). We have a huge number of people who will not be able to take advantage of our so-called great society unless we can extend a helping hand to those who are capable. Scroll back a few pages for my take on the poetry of Thomas Gray: in this graveyard, there are some mute Miltons .. . unable to pull themselves out.

Re your comments on Carnegie and education. Yes. There are people are so educated and so incredibly savvy when it comes to business that they just bypass formal education. Madonna is a great example. These people are self-educated, and many of them simply have a gift that the rest of us envy--the ability to read markets and find their niches and take that ball and run with it, leaving most of us in their dust! How I wish I were one of them.

I won't back down, however, on my quest to get this nation better educated. Ford, Madonna? They are not your average folks. Most of us need instruction. And? This is just me . . . speaking from my heart: educating ourselves will make us better people.

I gotta go to bed. Nice chatting with you. Like when I chat with Vi, I don't agree with much at all of what you are saying, but I do respect your views because you are a reasonable person. And that's saying a lot, esp in this heated political climate.

Can we agree on this? Let's throw the lobbyists OUT. And by that, I mean all of them. What is good for the goose is good for the gander: that means even the Sierra Club, etc. If the big players can't lobby, then neither can the "little people's" lobbyists. Let the legislators do their jobs, which should NOT be looking for campaign funds.

Agree? Or no?

TTYL
Click to expand...
Of course the lobbyists should be thrown out.

And I wouldn't be willing to spend a lot of time typing a response if there wasn't something more mature to your feedback and responses than something I could get from Vi, CC, ChuckBane, or any of the other handful of people who post on this site in what can only be called media sound bites.

As far as blaming the poor. I'm not blaming the poor, I'm just saying that it is a systemic failure of the current system at large.

The problem with education (imo) is that instead of focusing on vital skills, like balancing a checkbook, managing finances, understanding mortgages, understanding the stock markets, the schools are too focused on teaching about other cultures.

Learning about other cultures is all good and well, but it is something that is largely irrelevant to day to day life.

There's also over focus on sports, which is another stupid way for schools to spend their money. Sports benefit only a few, whereas more funding for mathematics, science, (and though I shudder at having to admit this), art would be better.

Though, I have an overall problem with the way classes and school in general is taught. I don't think there is enough done to really encourage students to learn at their own pace. I know I was bored out of my mind in highschool. The classes were boring, and the homework was easy. Of course, by the time I got to highschool I was bored out of my mind, and not even trying, but even with my minimal effort I got a 3.4 GPA.

At the risk of making myself sound disjointed, I'm going to go back to government now. The problem with education (over focus on unimportant things) can also be seen in government. Where too many programs exist that really don't do anything that another department wouldn't already be doing.

There's also the matter of the tax system. Any tax system is going to encourage cheating.

People hate taxes, and that's part of the underlying problem.

Why should I pay $16K a year, when a family that makes twice as much as me, has a house (that they can't afford) is going to get bailed out. It's a slap in the face.

Taxes are therefore immoral.

Stealing from one group and giving to the other is not a basis of a just society. There is no way to make taxation just if the government is going to keep on providing bread and circuses for whatever group the politicans feel like they need to do rim jobs on.

Should the poor have support, yes, but the best place for that to happen is not by the government, (at least not the federal government), but maybe at a local or municipal level.

And even then it should be support. Not hand outs.

Though, it's kind of hard for me to see any reason to support a government that is shafting me with $16K in taxes. That's money that I could use to invest, and spend, and really generate jobs.

The problem with government is that it creates a drag on the economy. Money that it confiscates in taxes would often do a better job left in private hands. When jobs are easy to create, and there is competition you have full employment, and extra jobs waiting to be filled. When you are stuck with extra jobs and not enough people you end up having employers enter bidding wars to attract and retain workers.

I think I'm rambling, I'm going to shut up, and go to sleep....

Though I disagree with your opinion that I am mixing Socialism with Communism. They are, as far as I am concerned interchangeable.

About the only real difference is that Communists form Political Parties and Socialists don't. Both attempt to venerate Marx as some kind of God, despite the great gaping holes in his theories.
 
Leilani Garden

Leilani Garden

Well-Known Member
Dang you Brutal (and Tigs--HTF do you spell your name??).

I was going to BED, and you two just had to, had to, talk to me.

I can't. I gotta go to bed.

But this, Brutal, okay? Then more tomorrow, if I have time. How about this quote:

"We will sell them the rope with which they will hang themselves."

Who said it? What's going on with our borrowing so much money from China and buying up all their super cheap consumer goods and god knows what else?

Who said it?

Not Marx, nope, but a contemporary of his, and yes, a communist. So much for their theories not being sound. They are, to a certain extent.

Oh shit, now you got me going again.

Google "welfare reform mid 1990s." Or something like that. THE WELFARE QUEEN [a Reagan soundbite, btw] is no more. There are no more "hand out" programs that encourage generations of families to make a lifestyle out of social programs. The system now really punishes people. It does. Please trust me on this one.

Good night. Sleep well. Stop talking to me! Please!

On a more serious note, thanks for the "mature" dialog we've got going here. (I'm gonna win this one, though, you can take that to the bank :hug: )

Night to you, too, Tigs. :peace:
 
tipsgnob

tipsgnob

New Member
Leilani Garden said:
Dang you Brutal (and Tigs--HTF do you spell your name??).

I was going to BED, and you two just had to, had to, talk to me.

I can't. I gotta go to bed.

But this, Brutal, okay? Then more tomorrow, if I have time. How about this quote:

"We will sell them the rope with which they will hang themselves."

Who said it? What's going on with our borrowing so much money from China and buying up all their super cheap consumer goods and god knows what else?

Who said it?

Not Marx, nope, but a contemporary of his, and yes, a communist. So much for their theories not being sound. They are, to a certain extent.

Oh shit, now you got me going again.

Google "welfare reform mid 1990s." Or something like that. THE WELFARE QUEEN [a Reagan soundbite, btw] is no more. There are no more "hand out" programs that encourage generations of families to make a lifestyle out of social programs. The system now really punishes people. It does. Please trust me on this one. Maybe I'll have to clear out my PM box so that I can tell you more about this. Doing so here would reveal too much personal info about me, which just freaks me out badly.

Good night. Sleep well. Stop talking to me! Please!

On a more serious note, thanks for the "mature" dialog we've got going here. (I'm gonna win this one, though, you can take that to the bank :hug: )

Night to you, too, Tigs. :peace:
Click to expand...
is that all you got to say? goodnight? tips
 
Leilani Garden

Leilani Garden

Well-Known Member
Damn it. I have to comment on this one:

Learning about other cultures is all good and well, but it is something that is largely irrelevant to day to day life.

No. You're wrong. Understanding other cultures helps us (1) comprehend the rest of the world; and in this day and age, without a decent understanding of other cultures, our foreign affairs are going to suffer terribly--as we've already seen. More on that later--and (2) helps us understand the many sub-cultures within our larger culture. If we ignore them and refuse to put any effort into learning about their way of life, their values, traditions, etc, we're going to pay the price. Why? Because what are we going to do otherwise? Throw them out? Well, we can't do that. Ignore them? Keep doing that, keep sticking to the stubborn belief that THIS larger culture is THE one, and the social problems will only become worse than they are now.

On a macro level, it's sort of like when you have to explain to someone visiting your home that your great grandfather has Alzheimers and sometimes says outrageous things, so please do not take it personally.

That's way too simplistic an analogy, but? You made me stay up too late and? I'm just tired. Really tard.

NIGHT! EVERYONE! Go to bed NOW, or there will be no fun for you this weekend, because you will be grounded!

More on the education stuff later too. I agree iwth some of what you've said, but naturally, I have to pick apart what you've written and add my own stuff to it.

GO TO BED!:-P
 
Leilani Garden

Leilani Garden

Well-Known Member
Tigs wrote:

is that all you got to say? goodnight? tips

Okay, how about this? I love you Tigs? You are da bomb?

WTF do you MEAN is that all I've got to say? Did you, somehow, uh, miss all that speed typing that means I type fast, therefore I am?

GET TO BED NOW. NOW! <smooch>
 
tipsgnob

tipsgnob

New Member
Leilani Garden said:
Tigs wrote:

is that all you got to say? goodnight? tips

Okay, how about this? I love you Tigs? You are da bomb?

WTF do you MEAN is that all I've got to say? Did you, somehow, uh, miss all that speed typing that means I type fast, therefore I am?

GET TO BED NOW. NOW! <smooch>
Click to expand...
you can't shutup can you? :hug:
 
Leilani Garden

Leilani Garden

Well-Known Member
Let me try this one more time. I'm really just trying to see if the pic in my signature is working yet. I do have priorities, you know.

Should I just shut up, Tigs? Probably.

Later. Out of time today.
 
TheBrutalTruth

TheBrutalTruth

Well-Known Member
Leilani Garden said:
Dang you Brutal (and Tigs--HTF do you spell your name??).

I was going to BED, and you two just had to, had to, talk to me.

I can't. I gotta go to bed.

But this, Brutal, okay? Then more tomorrow, if I have time. How about this quote:

"We will sell them the rope with which they will hang themselves."

Who said it? What's going on with our borrowing so much money from China and buying up all their super cheap consumer goods and god knows what else?

Who said it?

Not Marx, nope, but a contemporary of his, and yes, a communist. So much for their theories not being sound. They are, to a certain extent.

Oh shit, now you got me going again.

Google "welfare reform mid 1990s." Or something like that. THE WELFARE QUEEN [a Reagan soundbite, btw] is no more. There are no more "hand out" programs that encourage generations of families to make a lifestyle out of social programs. The system now really punishes people. It does. Please trust me on this one.

Good night. Sleep well. Stop talking to me! Please!

On a more serious note, thanks for the "mature" dialog we've got going here. (I'm gonna win this one, though, you can take that to the bank :hug: )

Night to you, too, Tigs. :peace:
Click to expand...
Regardless of where the handouts are going, the fact of the matter is that government is inefficient, and the only people a huge government benefit are bureaucrats.

Explain to me, why I should feel that it is justifiable that welfare manages to spend only $16K out of $80K on the people its supposed to help. That means that for every 5 people like me that pay $16K in taxes annualy, or for every 10 people that pay $8K in taxes/year (Families, people making $35K like Obama's Teacher) that government only manages to help 1 person.

I'm not against welfare (completely) I'm against the fact that it strips me of my ability to generate jobs by spending my money how I see fit. Of the ability to save for my retirement, and to invest in my own future.

I don't want the government's "help". I am sick and tired of the government's "help", which can only be described as a systematic robbing of the American People under the guise of "helping" them.

Give me your money today, and I'll help you tomorrow...

That's all good and well except for the fact that thanks to these idiotic policies I'm stuck financing a vehicle instead of being able to place a sizable down payment on it, and thus stay out of debt.

Government is bloated, and government is a giant welfare program.

The economy is heading south, but do you here of widespread government cuts?

Government is the only organization that some how gets away with ignoring economic reality, usually at the expense of everyone else, and the entire country.

People keep on going on and on about the poor, but government only helps itself. It helps itself so much that the average government worker earns $6K more than the average private sector employee.

Mayors in major cities rake in $100 - $200K.

Why is this acceptable?

I thought it was supposed to be government of the people, by the people for the people, not a government of the select, by the select, for the select.

Then there's the bail outs. $700 Billion that is going to be given to failed businesses, and other people. Yes, it is unfortunate that they are going to lose their homes, but how does this help the rest of America? How does this help people that didn't run around buying and selling homes like morons creating an artificial boom?

How does rescuing these banks help any one but the bankers, and their employees?

When Lehman declared bankruptcy you saw it liquidate portions of its businesses. All the failed banks should be forced to do that. It is not in the interests of the American People to subsidize failure, greed, and idiocy.

Once again, we see a government operating for the select few.

Everyone is Equal, but some are more Equal than others.

This isn't Capitalism, this is Socialism.
 
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