"Jesus Certainly Existed" Three Reasons To Be Skeptical

subwax said:

Damn - you make me look thick as pigshit.

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There's a lot more info. But I trimmed down to the essentials because I'll get "TL;DR because my nipples hurt" bullshit here.

Let me know if your interested in some lectures, and interviews with scholars.

subwax said:

Damn - you make me look thick as pigshit.

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you think that blows your mind.....read and find out the description of the man Jesus...that will blow you mind.....you'll find out the he wasn't blue eyed and brown haired for starters

Dalek Supreme said:

There's a lot more info. But I trimmed down to the essentials because I'll get "TL;DR because my nipples hurt" bullshit here.

Let me know if your interested in some lectures, and interviews with scholars.

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Sure - please PM me a few links - I am interested to read.

Thanks very much.

BudmanTX said:

you think that blows your mind.....read and find out the description of the man Jesus...that will blow you mind.....you'll find out the he wasn't blue eyed and brown haired for starters

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No - I thought he was more African, right?

subwax said:

No - I thought he was more African, right?

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he was more middle eastern decent, with darker skin and darker hair

In my humble opinion, He was the Messiah to save the Judeans from what came within thirty years, destruction of their temple and the diaspora. Pilate probably wanted this Yeshua’s ways of fellowship to preserve the peace, revolts were already taking place over the statues of Caesar and taxes. But the rest is history.

subwax said:

Sure - please PM me a few links - I am interested to read.

Thanks very much.

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Here's some things to wet your appetite. Note: There's many bad scholarship ideas about Jesus. Here is a representation of confident researchers, but they all do not necessarily agree with each other, and may, or may not hold to radical ideas.

Why the Gospels are Myth, Richard Carrier


Why Invent Jesus, Richard Carrier


Dying & Rising Gods: It's Pagan


He Appeared to Over 500 Brethren at Once!


Desperately Searching the Epistles


The Josephus Testimonium: Let's admit it's fake already


Are the Gospels Historically Reliable? Bart Ehrman


Ten Beautiful Lies About Jesus, David Fitzgerald


James The Brother of The Lord/Jesus?, Robert M Price

Kerowacked said:

In my humble opinion, He was the Messiah to save the Judeans from what came within thirty years, destruction of their temple and the diaspora. Pilate probably wanted this Yeshua’s ways of fellowship to preserve the peace, revolts were already taking place over the statues of Caesar and taxes. But the rest is history.

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See how blatantly John takes a parable in Luke and reverses the Lazarus theme from "neither will they be convinced even if someone rises from the dead" in Luke to "Many... had seen what Jesus did, believed in him" in John. Also in Luke there's no mention of the sisters having a brother named Lazarus, nor does Mark, or Matthew mention him.

Luke 10:38-39

"38 Now as they went on their way, he entered a certain village, where a woman named Martha welcomed him into her home. 39 She had a sister named Mary, who sat at the LORD's feet and listened to what he was saying."

Luke 16:19-23, :27-31

"19 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21 who longed to satisfy his hunger with what fell from the rich man's table; even the dogs would come and lick his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried away by the angels to be with Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was being tormented, he looked up and saw Abraham far away with Lazarus by his side."

"27 He said, 'Then, father, I beg you to send him to my father's house — 28 for I have five brothers — that he may warn them, so that they will not also come into this place of torment.' 29 Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the prophets; they should listen to them.' 30 He said, 'No, father Abraham; but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced even if someone rises from the dead."'

John 11:1-4. :17, :38-45

"1 Now a certain man was ill, Lazarus of Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha 2 Mary was the one who anointed the Lord with perfume and wiped his feet with her hair; her brother Lazarus was ill. 3 So the sisters sent a message to Jesus, "Lord, he whom you love is ill." 4 But when Jesus heard it, he said, "This illness does not lead to death; rather it is for God's glory, so that the Son of God may be glorified through it.""

"17 When Jesus arrived, he found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb four days."

"38 Then Jesus, again greatly disturbed, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone was lying against it. 39 Jesus said, "Take away the stone." Martha, the sister of the dead man, said to him, "Lord, already there is a stench because he has been dead four days." 40 Jesus said to her, "Did I not tell you that if you believed, you would see the glory of God?" 41 So they took away the stone. And Jesus looked upward and said, "Father, I thank you for having heard me. 42 I knew that you always hear me, but I have said this for the sake of the crowd standing here, so that they may believe that you sent me." 43 When he had said this, he cried with a loud voice, "Lazarus, come out!" 44 The dead man came out, his hands and feet bound with strips of cloth, and his face wrapped in a cloth. Jesus said to them, "Unbind him, and let him go." 45 Many of the Jews therefore, who had come with Mary and had seen what Jesus did, believed in him."

Note: In the synoptics the Jewish leaders plot to kill Jesus because of the Temple incident, but in John it's the raising of Lazarus.

Dalek Supreme said:

See how blatantly John takes a parable in Luke and reverses the Lazarus theme from "neither will they be convinced even if someone rises from the dead" in Luke to "Many... had seen what Jesus did, believed in him" in John. Also in Luke there's no mention of the sisters having a brother named Lazarus, nor does Mark, or Matthew mention him.

Luke 10:38-39

"38 Now as they went on their way, he entered a certain village, where a woman named Martha welcomed him into her home. 39 She had a sister named Mary, who sat at the LORD's feet and listened to what he was saying."

Luke 16:19-23, :27-31

"19 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21 who longed to satisfy his hunger with what fell from the rich man's table; even the dogs would come and lick his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried away by the angels to be with Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was being tormented, he looked up and saw Abraham far away with Lazarus by his side."

"27 He said, 'Then, father, I beg you to send him to my father's house — 28 for I have five brothers — that he may warn them, so that they will not also come into this place of torment.' 29 Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the prophets; they should listen to them.' 30 He said, 'No, father Abraham; but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced even if someone rises from the dead."'

John 11:1-4. :17, :38-45

"1 Now a certain man was ill, Lazarus of Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha 2 Mary was the one who anointed the Lord with perfume and wiped his feet with her hair; her brother Lazarus was ill. 3 So the sisters sent a message to Jesus, "Lord, he whom you love is ill." 4 But when Jesus heard it, he said, "This illness does not lead to death; rather it is for God's glory, so that the Son of God may be glorified through it.""

"17 When Jesus arrived, he found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb four days."

"38 Then Jesus, again greatly disturbed, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone was lying against it. 39 Jesus said, "Take away the stone." Martha, the sister of the dead man, said to him, "Lord, already there is a stench because he has been dead four days." 40 Jesus said to her, "Did I not tell you that if you believed, you would see the glory of God?" 41 So they took away the stone. And Jesus looked upward and said, "Father, I thank you for having heard me. 42 I knew that you always hear me, but I have said this for the sake of the crowd standing here, so that they may believe that you sent me." 43 When he had said this, he cried with a loud voice, "Lazarus, come out!" 44 The dead man came out, his hands and feet bound with strips of cloth, and his face wrapped in a cloth. Jesus said to them, "Unbind him, and let him go." 45 Many of the Jews therefore, who had come with Mary and had seen what Jesus did, believed in him."

Note: In the synoptics the Jewish leaders plot to kill Jesus because of the Temple incident, but in John it's the raising of Lazarus.

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You're quoting a storybook though. Is there not any more concrete evidence?

subwax said:

You're quoting a storybook though. Is there not any more concrete evidence?

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Let me break it down Barney style for you. Mark the first Gospel written has no Lazarus, nor does the second Gospel Matthew. The third Luke has a Lazarus, but it's a character in a parable, and is not raised from the dead. The fourth Gospel John has a Lazarus that's made as if historical, and reverses the Lukan parable Lazarus. Do you see that this raises (no pun intended) the probability of this Lazarus being entirely fictional?

It's hard to prove anything, but one can infer what is most likely. Do you see how that works?

subwax said:

Well - thats how it seems to me, right? You disagree?

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I just don't see God creating human life that's destined to fail in a couple generations.

Dalek Supreme said:

Let me break it down Barney style for you. Mark the first Gospel written has no Lazarus, nor does the second Gospel Matthew. The third Luke has a Lazarus, but it's a character in a parable, and is not raised from the dead. The fourth Gospel John has a Lazarus that's made as if historical, and reverses the Lukan parable Lazarus. Do you see that this raises (no pun intended) the probability of this Lazarus being entirely fictional?

It's hard to prove anything, but one can infer what is most likely. Do you see how that works?

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Sure - The most likely outcome is that there is no god - never was. Just some dude who had a knowledge of writing, an evil sense of humour and had a lot of time on his hands,

I could get behind something like interference by those not of this world in human destiny. We developed massively in a short period of time, around 50000 years ago. I believe science is still trying to explain how that happened. Again, no real evidence of this though - so in the same boat, really.

GrassBurner said:

I just don't see God creating human life that's destined to fail in a couple generations.

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Bleak, but entirely possible. We could be too late to stop the impact of global warming.

subwax said:

Bleak, but entirely possible. We could be too late to stop the impact of global warming.

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the earth will do what it wants, we as humans are just mear ants to it

subwax said:

Sure - The most likely outcome is that there is no god - never was. Just some dude who had a knowledge of writing, an evil sense of humour and had a lot of time on his hands,

I could get behind something like interference by those not of this world in human destiny. We developed massively in a short period of time, around 50000 years ago. I believe science is still trying to explain how that happened. Again, no real evidence of this though - so in the same boat, really.

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It shows people were making things up which does not answer the overall God question (which there is no evidence of). There's many hands in the Bible, and many were believers even though some were making things up.

No evidence of ancient aliens either.

What is to be gained by debating that which can’t be proven and is based on the idea of “faith”, a belief of something that is logicly disproven?

Dalek Supreme said:

No evidence of ancient aliens either.

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Absolutely. More likely that a bearded man in the clouds though.

Grojak said:

What is to be gained by debating that which can’t be proven and is based on the idea of “faith”, a belief of something that is logicly disproven?

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Entertainment?

Not an awful lot more, really.

subwax said:

Entertainment?

Not an awful lot more, really.

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A better debate would be how culpable major church sects are for the crimes their employees commit while employed by those churches and why, like organized crime,they are not being infiltrated and held accountable.

Grojak said:

What is to be gained by debating that which can’t be proven and is based on the idea of “faith”, a belief of something that is logicly disproven?

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It's about history, and of those without faith that have certainties of historicity. I give evidence why one should be agnostic on historicity.

I show the Gospels as fabrications, and that the earliest Xtian writings have both odd things about them, and give plausible evidence based allternatives to explain it. I did not even begin to detail the simularities of Philo of Alexandria's Divine Word/Logos, and Paul's Christ Jesus. The Logos did not have metaphorical allegories set on Earth written about it, while Jesus looks like it did. These do not prove ahistory, but one not beholden to the Power of the Holy Dopamine Ghost via Placebo Faith should be skeptical on both sides.

See how Philo's Divine Word sounds so similar to Paul's Christ Jesus, and shared philosophies. Could it be that they (Logos/Jesus) are the same being perceived out of OT scripture, and the later Gospels/Acts are just fictions (set on Earth) to get the less philosophical/spiritual inclined to understand?

*"In the Septuagint version of the Old Testament the term logos (Hebrew davar) was used frequently to describe God's utterances, God's action, and messages of prophets by means of which God communicated his will to his people."*

Note: God speaks things into existence *(his vocalization is his firstborn).*

*"Philo's doctrine of the Logos is blurred by his mystical and religious vision, but his Logos is clearly the second individual in one God as a hypostatization of God's Creative Power - Wisdom."*

*"Having identified the Logos with Wisdom, Philo runs into a grammatical problem: in the Greek language (Septuagint) "wisdom" (sophia) is feminine and "word" (logos) is masculine; moreover, Philo saw Wisdom's function as masculine. So he explains that Wisdom's name is feminine, but her nature is masculine:"* (1 Cor. 1:24b "Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.")

*"Philo's ethical doctrine is Stoic in its essence and includes the active effort to achieve virtue, the model of a sage to be followed, and practical advice concerning the achievement of the proper right reason and a proper emotional state of rational emotions."*


There's some confusion what "Logos" means. Basicly it means rational thoughts, and, or communication. For example an animal would be considered lacking in Logos on both counts. It takes on more metaphysical attributes as an outside source for influencing "right reasoning".

The Works of Philo: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/yonge/index.html

Here are the philosophies of Paul and Philo along with God's firstborn:

*Image of God* (2 Cor. 4:4, Phili. 2:6) *Agent of creation* (Rom. 11:36, 1 Cor. 8:6)

THE SPECIAL LAWS, I

"XVI ...Now *the image of God is the Word, by which all the world was made..."*

*Celestial high priest* (Heb. 2:17, 4:14) *God's Word* (Heb. 1:3, 11:3) *Firstborn son* (Rom. 8:29)

ON DREAMS, THAT THEY ARE GOD-SENT

"XXXVII ...For there are, as it seems, two temples belonging to God; one being this world, in which *the high priest is the Divine Word, his own firstborn son."*

*Spiritual kinship & an angel of God* (Gal. 4:5-7, :14, Heb. 1:4)

To Paul we become siblings *(Brothers of the Lord)* to Jesus in a spiritual family through faith, baptism, and proper behavior. To Philo we may become children to the "Image of God" (God's firstborn).

ON THE CONFUSION OF TONGUES

"XI ...In reference to which I admire those who say, “We are all one man’s sons, we are men of Peace,” (Gen. 42:11) because of their well-adapted agreement; since how, I should say, could you, O excellent men, avoid being grieved at war, and delighted in peace, *being the sons of one and the same father, and he not mortal but immortal, the man of God, who being the reason of the everlasting God, is of necessity himself also immortal?"*

"XXVIII *...And even if there be not as yet any one who is worthy to be called a son of God, nevertheless let him labour earnestly to be adorned according to his first-born word, the eldest of his angels, as the great archangel of many names; for he is called, the authority, and the name of God, and the Word, and man according to God’s image, and he who sees Israel. For which reason I was induced a little while ago to praise the principles of those who said, “We are all one man’s Sons.” (Gen. 42:11) For even if we are not yet suitable to be called the sons of God, still we may deserve to be called the children of his eternal image, of his most sacred word; for the image of God is his most ancient word...."*

Note: "but I did not see any other apostle except *James the LORD's brother."* (Gal. 1:19) This could be a cultic title (like Peter/Cephas which means "Rock" could have been) rather than being a biological relation? Paul constantly refers to those "in Christ" as brothers/sisters in a spiritual family.

*Good shepherd* (Heb. 13:20)

ON THE CHANGE OF NAMES

"XIX ...for they have abandoned all connections with pride, and having connected themselves with lawful persuasion, *choosing to become a portion of the sacred flock, of which the divine word is the leader, as his name shows, for it signifies the pastoral care of God."*

"XX *But while he is taking care of his own flock, all kinds of good things are given all at once to those of the sheep who are obedient, and who do not resist his will; and in the Psalms we find a song in these words, “The Lord is my shepherd, therefore shall I lack Nothing;” (psa. 23:1) therefore the mind which has had the royal shepherd, the divine word, for its instructor,..."*

*Purification, forgiveness of sins & glorification* (1 Cor. 6:11, 2 Cor. 3:18, 4:6)

ON THE LIFE OF MOSES, II

"XXVI Such then are the figurative meanings which he desires to indicate by the *sacred vestments of the high priest;... ...namely the logeum, being also an emblem of that reason which holds together and regulates the universe. For it was indispensable that the man who was consecrated to the Father of the world, should have as a paraclete, his son, the being most perfect in all virtue, to procure forgiveness of sins, and a supply of unlimited blessings;..."*

ON DREAMS, THAT THEY ARE GOD-SENT Book I

"XXXIX ...For when *the sacred word has purified us with the sprinklings prepared beforehand for purification, and when it has adorned us with the select reasonings of true philosophy, and, having led us to that man who has stood the test, has made us genuine, and conspicuous, and shining,..."*

Note: Is Philo saying *(“that man who has stood the test”)* that the Divine Word was tested (Heb. 2:1? If so it obviously passed the test.

*Sits beside God* (Heb. 8:1)

ABOUT NOT MOVING LANDMARKS

"XXXVIII... I say, should such men triumph in and insult the misfortunes of others, *having no respect for justice, the ruler of human life, who sits by the side of the great Ruler of the universe, who surveys all things with sleepless and most piercing eyes, and sees what is in recesses as clearly as if it was in the pure sunlight?"*

*The Word is a covenant* (1 Cor. 11:25, 2 Cor. 3:4-6)

ON DREAMS, THAT THEY ARE GOD-SENT Book II

"XXXIII *...God, says that he is about to erect firmly his covenant full of grace (and that means his law and his word) in the soul of the just man as on a solid foundation, which shall be an image in the likeness of God, when he says to Noah, “I will establish my covenant with Thee.” (Gen. 9:11) And besides this, he also indicates two other things, one that justice is in no respect different from the covenant of God,* the other that other beings bestow gifts which are different from the persons who receive them;... XXXVI Since then all steadiness, and stability, and the abiding for ever in the same place unchangeably and immovably, is first of all *seen in the living God, and next in the word of the living God, which he has called his covenant;..."*