Jesus Myth & Why It Endures

JCS57

Well-Known Member
i dont know what youre getting at. The text in bold is something i never wrote.
The text in bold is my response. But skip it anyway since your screed doesn't even address the biases prejudices and experiences of the many people that authored the Bible. You expect the readers to under go self exam in order interpret what they are reading but you haven't addressed how or even if the authors did said same while writing it. So fellow meat suit get a grip on that.
 

schnooby

Well-Known Member
JC, im sure your view feels perfectly reasonable to you. So whos doesnt? How many people have you met in your life who readily admit or like to admit they are wrong? How about people who are willing to admit they are ignorant? If your experience is anything like mine it is likely most of the people you have met believe that their opinions and understanding of reality is just as legit as anyone elses. However, i think you admit as i do that we know this is not the case. Peoples intellectual capacitied, sanity, perceptual accuracy, emotional stability and so many other factors vary so widely, that as i said earlier, it is amazing humans get along as well as they do, hence my "meat suit" comment.


That being said, it is perhaps of interest and maybe even necessary in some cases to want to look into those biases, experiences etc of the biblical authors. However, might i suggest that allowing questions of those kind to get in the way of an open minded assessment of the bible on its own merits would be in danger of commiting a very common logical fallacy called "attacking the messenger". Im sure youve heard of it.


Let me put it another way. If i was driviing down a road and someone jumped out in front of my car waving their arms with a crazed expression on their face screaming a warning to not go further because there was a bridge out or a shooting or any number of dangerous situations awaiting i might be inclined to disregard him purely on the basis of his appearance and behavior. However doing so would violate protocols of logical analysis. Taking into account any other environmental variables and added together with his behavior i could perhaps have a chance at piecing together a reasonable assessment of what actions to take. if it was a clear blue sky, no smoke or noise in the distance, no sirens etc i might choose to proceed with caution. IIf it was raining hard and the sky was dark i might still proceed but very cautiously or even decide the man was t1elling the truth. If there were sirens in the distance and smoke or hard rain or any other conditions which could lend credence to the claims of the wild eyed man i might be very inclined to believe him.

So forgive a hasty and poor analogy, but im sure you get my meaning. God doesnt want blind faith. God wants people to have reasons for why they believe what they do. "come now and let us reason together" he says. Is. 1:18

You see, it doesnt really matter if you think the bible is rediculous. Plenty of real things are rediculous. You need not even like God to admit it is or is not real. A truly open mind and reasonable person will admit if something is true even if they dont like it. I happen to not like many things about the reality that i believe in, but i believe in it because my intellect, intuition and awareness demand it.

If a person was truly interested in establishing a basis for why to believe or not believe in the bible i could provide ample evidence for the former. Reasons for the latter are usually not wanting.
 

SamsonsRiddle

Well-Known Member
The text in bold is my response. But skip it anyway since your screed doesn't even address the biases prejudices and experiences of the many people that authored the Bible. You expect the readers to under go self exam in order interpret what they are reading but you haven't addressed how or even if the authors did said same while writing it. So fellow meat suit get a grip on that.
There is a flaw in this reasoning. You don't believe in god and therefore reject the bible's clear teaching of "holy men of god were moved as the holy spirit moved them." God spoke through men by the power of the holy spirit, not certain people wrote what they believed. Even Jesus said he didn't speak of his own accord, but rather god gave the people the message through him.
 

JCS57

Well-Known Member
There is a flaw in this reasoning. You don't believe in god and therefore reject the bible's clear teaching of "holy men of god were moved as the holy spirit moved them." God spoke through men by the power of the holy spirit, not certain people wrote what they believed. Even Jesus said he didn't speak of his own accord, but rather god gave the people the message through him.
Don't believe in god? Ah....which one. See here's the flaw in your reasoning, who told you that God spoke through men other men. The Bible was bought and paid for by emperor Constantine and the books were voted in by his lackeys.
 

schnooby

Well-Known Member
Don't believe in god? Ah....which one. See here's the flaw in your reasoning, who told you that God spoke through men other men. The Bible was bought and paid for by emperor Constantine and the books were voted in by his lackeys.

JC, i directly answered the points you raised and instead of acknowledging or contesting them you appear to now be jumping around to other reasons to mock the bible. If you cant stay on topic and focused theres no reason for you to be here and pretend you have an interest in elucidating the things you claim are nonsensical.

As to which god....since you brought it up.....

in all time and places of human history the vast majority of everyone who has ever lived has believed in a god or intelligent creative force. Only in our modern era are some so arrogant and proud to think they are special and better than everyone else who has ever lived.
 

SamsonsRiddle

Well-Known Member
Don't believe in god? Ah....which one. See here's the flaw in your reasoning, who told you that God spoke through men other men. The Bible was bought and paid for by emperor Constantine and the books were voted in by his lackeys.
Obviously we were talking about the god of the bible.

And of course constantine did what every other emperor of the time was doing - trying to consolidate power by uniting religions that are opposite each other, even though one was worshiping the wrong "sun". If you want to get into constantine and all the things he made law and how he actually persecuted and killed real believers, be my guest.

However, if you have anything relevant to contribute to the conversation, i'm sure we would enjoy that much more.
 

schnooby

Well-Known Member
Obviously we were talking about the god of the bible.

And of course constantine did what every other emperor of the time was doing - trying to consolidate power by uniting religions that are opposite each other, even though one was worshiping the wrong "sun". If you want to get into constantine and all the things he made law and how he actually persecuted and killed real believers, be my guest.

However, if you have anything relevant to contribute to the conversation, i'm sure we would enjoy that much more.

i probly dont have to tell you that this guys obcession with constantines role in chriatianity and the bible is a very common red herring they get caught up in......that thinking is very similar again to the attack the messenger logical fallacy because instead of asking if the bible as we have it is reliable, internally consistent and relevant to human history they are saying well if this guy ever laid his hands on the bible then it MUST be corrupt and if you disprove that theyll just jump like some nervous little rabbit onto the next pedestal of doubt they have in their collection. I really dont know if theres much you can do for them.
 

JCS57

Well-Known Member
JC, im sure your view feels perfectly reasonable to you. So whos doesnt? How many people have you met in your life who readily admit or like to admit they are wrong? How about people who are willing to admit they are ignorant? If your experience is anything like mine it is likely most of the people you have met believe that their opinions and understanding of reality is just as legit as anyone elses. However, i think you admit as i do that we know this is not the case. Peoples intellectual capacitied, sanity, perceptual accuracy, emotional stability and so many other factors vary so widely, that as i said earlier, it is amazing humans get along as well as they do, hence my "meat suit" comment.

Even with all that it still works, if it didn't we'd still be living in trees or under rocks.


That being said, it is perhaps of interest and maybe even necessary in some cases to want to look into those biases, experiences etc of the biblical authors. However, might i suggest that allowing questions of those kind to get in the way of an open minded assessment of the bible on its own merits would be in danger of commiting a very common logical fallacy called "attacking the messenger". Im sure youve heard of it.

Yes heard of that one also heard of the one called circular reasoning and begging the question.


Let me put it another way. If i was driviing down a road and someone jumped out in front of my car waving their arms with a crazed expression on their face screaming a warning to not go further because there was a bridge out or a shooting or any number of dangerous situations awaiting i might be inclined to disregard him purely on the basis of his appearance and behavior. However doing so would violate protocols of logical analysis. Taking into account any other environmental variables and added together with his behavior i could perhaps have a chance at piecing together a reasonable assessment of what actions to take. if it was a clear blue sky, no smoke or noise in the distance, no sirens etc i might choose to proceed with caution. IIf it was raining hard and the sky was dark i might still proceed but very cautiously or even decide the man was t1elling the truth. If there were sirens in the distance and smoke or hard rain or any other conditions which could lend credence to the claims of the wild eyed man i might be very inclined to believe him.

So forgive a hasty and poor analogy, but im sure you get my meaning. God doesnt want blind faith. God wants people to have reasons for why they believe what they do. "come now and let us reason together" he says. Is. 1:18

Go back a re-read your first paragraph then apply that here. Can't have your cake and eat it too.


You see, it doesnt really matter if you think the bible is rediculous. Plenty of real things are rediculous. You need not even like God to admit it is or is not real. A truly open mind and reasonable person will admit if something is true even if they dont like it. I happen to not like many things about the reality that i believe in, but i believe in it because my intellect, intuition and awareness demand it.

If a person was truly interested in establishing a basis for why to believe or not believe in the bible i could provide ample evidence for the former. Reasons for the latter are usually not wanting.

I don't think the Bible is ridiculous just the rubes using it to justify their hate and bigotry. Open mindedness and being reasonable I'm down with, that's why Im an atheist. How many gods do you believe in and worship? If you only adhere to the Christian God then aren't you closing your mind to the other possibilities thus choosing your own reality. A truly open and reasonable mind would admit the other possibility are just as viable as their own. Non belief is reasonable and open minded since it isn't picking one over the other it's simply standing by until more information can be acquired thus allowing for a more reasoned decision possibly at some point in the future.
 

JCS57

Well-Known Member
i probly dont have to tell you that this guys obcession with constantines role in chriatianity and the bible is a very common red herring they get caught up in......that thinking is very similar again to the attack the messenger logical fallacy because instead of asking if the bible as we have it is reliable, internally consistent and relevant to human history they are saying well if this guy ever laid his hands on the bible then it MUST be corrupt and if you disprove that theyll just jump like some nervous little rabbit onto the next pedestal of doubt they have in their collection. I really dont know if theres much you can do for them.
Constantine is hardly a red herring if your talking about the Bible, without him the Bible as you know doesn't happen. Since we're talking fallacy here look up ad hominem.
 

JCS57

Well-Known Member
JC, i directly answered the points you raised and instead of acknowledging or contesting them you appear to now be jumping around to other reasons to mock the bible. If you cant stay on topic and focused theres no reason for you to be here and pretend you have an interest in elucidating the things you claim are nonsensical.

As to which god....since you brought it up.....

in all time and places of human history the vast majority of everyone who has ever lived has believed in a god or intelligent creative force. Only in our modern era are some so arrogant and proud to think they are special and better than everyone else who has ever lived.
Times in history majorities have believed many things that are now known not to be true. Many of the god beliefs are mutually exclusive thus rendering a comparitive between them a non starter. Either their right or your right or you're both wrong.
 

schnooby

Well-Known Member
I don't think the Bible is ridiculous just the rubes using it to justify their hate and bigotry. Open mindedness and being reasonable I'm down with, that's why Im an atheist. How many gods do you believe in and worship? If you only adhere to the Christian God then aren't you closing your mind to the other possibilities thus choosing your own reality. A truly open and reasonable mind would admit the other possibility are just as viable as their own. Non belief is reasonable and open minded since it isn't picking one over the other it's simply standing by until more information can be acquired thus allowing for a more reasoned decision possibly at some point in the future.

its cool man, im not interested in argumentative pissing matches on god cuz i think all it accomplishes is hardening people against future contact with the divine.

you seem pretty well entrenched in your beliefs and like i said before that in and of itself is nothing bad because i am too. the only problem really is that on issues which seem to demand kind of a deep understanding of so many knowledge domains and using really sound logic it can make debating those issues really contentious and play into ego and love of conflict etc......and i think those kinds of motived are a waste of time and self defeating.....

i could continue countering every point you raise and it probably would not matter how convincing and factual my evidence was, you will still be inclined to reject it.....at least from my somehwat brief ecxchange with you on here. Perhaps youre very open minded ( my definion is different than yours) on other issues but when it comes to religion you have an itch to go after it and try to discredit it. I see that as evidence usually of just outriht hate or disgust for something OR theres a part of you thatwants to beliee but you cant explain it well enough to justify it to yourself or youre not convinced its real and maybe you wish it was....etc......lots of possible reasons why you are here or what your isdues are....

join the club we all have em.
 

JCS57

Well-Known Member
Obviously we were talking about the god of the bible.

And of course constantine did what every other emperor of the time was doing - trying to consolidate power by uniting religions that are opposite each other, even though one was worshiping the wrong "sun". If you want to get into constantine and all the things he made law and how he actually persecuted and killed real believers, be my guest.

However, if you have anything relevant to contribute to the conversation, i'm sure we would enjoy that much more.
Since the sun not the proposed son has a very real impact on this planet and the posited son is but a re-telling of older myths me thinks they should have kept worshipping the one true sun. Even the God of the Bible is postulated differently from denomination to denomination with tenets exclusive to their group. They as you believe they are right and everyone else is wrong, again mutually exclusive.
 

JCS57

Well-Known Member
its cool man, im not interested in argumentative pissing matches on god cuz i think all it accomplishes is hardening people against future contact with the divine.

you seem pretty well entrenched in your beliefs and like i said before that in and of itself is nothing bad because i am too. the only problem really is that on issues which seem to demand kind of a deep understanding of so many knowledge domains and using really sound logic it can make debating those issues really contentious and play into ego and love of conflict etc......and i think those kinds of motived are a waste of time and self defeating.....

i could continue countering every point you raise and it probably would not matter how convincing and factual my evidence was, you will still be inclined to reject it.....at least from my somehwat brief ecxchange with you on here. Perhaps youre very open minded ( my definion is different than yours) on other issues but when it comes to religion you have an itch to go after it and try to discredit it. I see that as evidence usually of just outriht hate or disgust for something OR theres a part of you thatwants to beliee but you cant explain it well enough to justify it to yourself or youre not convinced its real and maybe you wish it was....etc......lots of possible reasons why you are here or what your isdues are....

join the club we all have em.
I'm not entrenched in my non belief at all, just provide something more tangible and my beliefs can change. You keep bringing up deep understanding, open minds, bias, logic, yada yada. I was a Christian at one time, it's exactly those things that lead me from that wildness. After years of examining my beliefs and relentless praying I had to ask myself could I actually be believing in and praying to the wrong god. Once I honestly accepted that the proposition could be true (meaning I opened my mind) the rest was easy. Most god claims have the same thing in common theirs is the one true god and the only way to enlightenment and you can define enlightenment to fit any supposed benefit that these beliefs allegedly provide. I imagine you're as much an atheist as I am concerning most gods the only difference is I go one God further.

 
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