Lack of interest

I'm always confused by the argument between "organic" growing as opposed to other methods. From what I understand, the idea behind organic growing is to use all natural and naturally occurring soil, fertilizers and so forth.

Organic Def.
[SIZE=-1]relating or belonging to the class of chemical compounds having a carbon basis; "hydrocarbons are organic compounds"
of or relating to or derived from living organisms; "organic soil"
[/SIZE]
I find it curious to note though that hydroponic growing really doesn't differ much from "organic" growing in definition. Just the medium. Is water not a naturally occurring substance? Yes. Does water not contain oxygen? Yes it does. Is it considered non "organic" if we use a method that adds extra oxygen to water to enhance and speed up the growth cycle? I think not, otherwise none of us would bother using fertilizers to enhance whatever we are trying to grow and just let the plants run wild and hope for the best. Hydro nutrients contain ALL of the same naturally occurring chemicals as "organic" fertilizers do. The difference being, Hydroponic nutrients are scientifically formulated to be superior and cleaner than "organic" fertilizers. No bacteria, unwanted organisms, and so forth. Sure, the chemicals are different in appearance from one method to the other. I have a slightly easier time looking at bottles and powders than I do sorting through cattle turds and so forth, lol.

I'm sure I could go on thinking up more things to say on the topic but I'll just summarize for now.

Organic vs. Hydroponic.
Medium-different, but both 100% natural,
Fertilizers/Nutrients-exact same natural chemical compounds (I'm no scientist, but I read my labels and I do have some botanical experience, worked in a greenhouse for a while) The difference is the reliability and consistency between fertilizer/nutes.
How do you make "organic"fertilizer? Mix up bat shit, bone meal, worm casings, etc. Or, do you buy your fertilizers in boxes, bags or bottles? mine come in bottles. Not a big difference.
Lights- Unless you're growing outdoors, lighting is exactly the same for both mediums-artificial.

I haven't really been able to figure out a solid difference between "organic" growing and Hydro. If someone knows more about the subject than I do (and I'm not a genius, just being genuinely humble) and can clarify what the exact difference is for me, I'd love to have that knowledge. It would clear up alot of confusion for me, hehe

Later all

IslandBoy said:

Ummm...cow teats are washed with antibacterial soap before milking and every tank of milk is tested before leaving the farm. I am from old farming stock and have milked my share-o-cows.

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Do they pasteurize milk just for something to pass the time when they get bored down on the farm? Why do you reckin' they would have to pasteurize milk with those nice shiny clean teets?

thunderchunkie said:

I'm always confused by the argument between "organic" growing as opposed to other methods. From what I understand, the idea behind organic growing is to use all natural and naturally occurring soil, fertilizers and so forth.

Organic Def.
[SIZE=-1]relating or belonging to the class of chemical compounds having a carbon basis; "hydrocarbons are organic compounds"
of or relating to or derived from living organisms; "organic soil"
[/SIZE]

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That def you list isn't correct. There are many different meanings for organic and someone seems to have combined two of them into a bastardized definition that is wrong. They seem to be applying Def 1 and Def 2 to growing when in common usage, def 4 is more accurately applied to growing foodstuffs. Here is the correct version:

organic
adj 1: relating or belonging to the class of chemical compounds
having a carbon basis; "hydrocarbons are organic
compounds" [ant: OpenDNS]
2: being or relating to or derived from or having properties
characteristic of living organisms; "organic life"; "organic
growth"; "organic remains found in rock" [ant: OpenDNS]
3: involving or affecting physiology or bodily organs; "an
organic disease" [ant: OpenDNS]
4: of or relating to foodstuff grown or raised without synthetic
fertilizers or pesticides or hormones; "organic eggs";
"organic vegetables"; "organic chicken"
5: simple and healthful and close to nature; "an organic
lifestyle"
6: constitutional in the structure of something (especially your
physical makeup) [syn: constituent(a), OpenDNS,
constitutive(a), organic]
n 1: a fertilizer that is derived from animal or vegetable
matter [syn: organic, organic fertilizer, organic fertiliser
Therefore, here are the differences for you. I hope that helps:
Differences between Organic Gardening and Conventional Vegetable Gardening

Organic gardening is defined as a system that excludes the use of synthetic fertilizers, pesticides, and growth regulators. Beyond that, technology and horticultural practices between conventional vegetable gardening and organic gardening production don't differ that much. The main difference is that organic gardening features compost as both mulch and organic fertilizer, and organic gardening features organic pest control and organic weed killer.

cool picasso345. would i be correct in saying then that any plant or flower that is grown with only organic nutrients or fertilizers should be considered organic regardless of the medium used? I'm trying to settle an argument between myself and a friend, lol.

Lol, I don't know. I would guess that media matters. If I grow my tomatoes in some bio-engineered magic soil that has synthetic hormones and is infused with man made Uranium 235. That isn't going to be organic. I think it would be tough to say ALL mediums are organic. But I'm no expert.

thunderchunkie said:

cool picasso345. would i be correct in saying then that any plant or flower that is grown with only organic nutrients or fertilizers should be considered organic regardless of the medium used? I'm trying to settle an argument between myself and a friend, lol.

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hahaa, its definitely a difficult subject. i would think that almost all mediums are organic. rockwool, clay pellets, hydroton, soil and compost, water. it seems that almost anything you would use is either in its naturally occurring state or slightly engineered to suit a specific purpose. I'm sure there a a few "mad science" mediums out there but the fact that none of us are using them leads me to believe that they're too expensive or not worth it.

you can do organics with hydro or aero, it is not mutually exclusive to soil growing. It is more about the types of nutrients you use and how they are processed. So long as you are using organic methods in your hydro/aero system I woud consider it organic unless you are going to bar the use of electricity in which case any indoor grow couldn't really be organic. Personally I dont find the need to be omri certified in everything I do, I just try to stick to as natural of a growing method as I can feasibly pull off.

OMRI somehow forgot to include Cannabis Sativa in their Organic Seed Database so I think we are screwed from the get go when it comes to OMRI.

I think non-organic is just more convenient. most people don't want a compost pile in their backyards. but, personally, I plan on doing everything once I get a nice big house. I wanna have the largest variety of weed ever. not just different strains though, I'll have nearly every grow method.

I’ll chime in here and try to be nice.
Thank you for posting, most of you.
Thunder, nice use of semantics and spin to make us think you don’t (or won’t) understand growing using organic methods.
For millions of years the flora of the earth did just fine with no added chemicals. Heck the human race was even able to feed themselves.
Along about (lets say) eighty years ago some farmers (soon to be food producers) got sold on the idea of using all kinds of both mined and petroleum refined products (chemicals) . Heck the stuff "Worked" bigger corn, apples, no bad bugs, no bad fungus and that was one big elephant in Oklahoma.
Nice, but lets remember for millions of years the earth (the thing you are living on) needed none of these chemicals because she made them herself in a symbiotic relationship with these plants. Yes, at least as far as a periodic table is concerned the plant uses the same chemicals rather getting these chemicals from organic methods or not, It's the process of getting these chemicals that differs.
The difference for me is: The process of soil, things in it, fauna (microherd) and flora (plants) go through to grow a plant. You may notice I say grow a plant rather than feed a plant although it does this too, I think more along the lines of feed the soil. A process the earth has been going through for millions and millions+ of years.
A non-organic (chemical) method uses chemicals readily available to the plant.No problem you say, but look closely at the plant that has been grown organically and one that hasn’t. The cells are healthier, more vitamins, the sugars are balanced with acids. A rose company recommends a line of organic products to fertilize their roses. Why? A rose will only exhibit it’s true scent, color, and shape when grown in soil with a healthy and thriving microbial presence. It comes down to the microbes of a million years ago, it can’t be done right without them. (Even miracle grow tells you to use mulch, or they did on the instructions last I looked 20 or more years ago). It is a process the plants and the earth have grown up with.
I would go into how this chain of microbes and life lead right up to us but I’m tiered so I’ll just leave some links for those with open minds. If we ignore it or kill it off, we are dead, not next week or next decade, but some of the major think tanks tell us maybe next century (not necessarily because or non-organic farming but because of non-organic living).
Love and peace

http://www.fungi.com/mycogrow/amaranthus.html

www.microbeworld.org/news/articles/biggest.aspx
www.acresusa.com

Picasso you had a point or 2 until you posted the list of people.They are all small weak sickly and dead people or some just plain crazy lol...Now on the milk thing the cows arent pregnant they are given hormones to tell them they are and to make milk. The cows utters and the electric milkers are sterile and they pasterize the milk to make sure no bacteria slips by and to help the shelf life of the milk as all natural enzymes are killed that will break down the milk fast which is why organic milk has to be sold and used much faster and can make you sick from the active bacteria and enzyem since organic ways are still pretty dirty and unsanatary but thats a whole different thing..I wont say organi grow weed is a weak plant just different and not maxed to its fullest but grown different with a different outcome just to slow,and small of a yield and takes way to long and too much work for most indoor growers.Outdoor it doesnt matter as its gonna take you forever no matter what.

FilthyFletch said:

Picasso you had a point or 2 until you posted the list of people.They are all small weak sickly and dead people or some just plain crazy lol...Now on the milk thing the cows arent pregnant they are given hormones to tell them they are and to make milk. The cows utters and the electric milkers are sterile and they pasterize the milk to make sure no bacteria slips by and to help the shelf life of the milk as all natural enzymes are killed that will break down the milk fast which is why organic milk has to be sold and used much faster and can make you sick from the active bacteria and enzyem since organic ways are still pretty dirty and unsanatary but thats a whole different thing..I wont say organi grow weed is a weak plant just different and not maxed to its fullest but grown different with a different outcome just to slow,and small of a yield and takes way to long and too much work for most indoor growers.Outdoor it doesnt matter as its gonna take you forever no matter what.

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huh? what?

organick said:

I’ll chime in here and try to be nice.
Thank you for posting, most of you.
Thunder, nice use of semantics and spin to make us think you don’t (or won’t) understand growing using organic methods.
For millions of years the flora of the earth did just fine with no added chemicals. Heck the human race was even able to feed themselves.
Along about (lets say) eighty years ago some farmers (soon to be food producers) got sold on the idea of using all kinds of both mined and petroleum refined products (chemicals) . Heck the stuff "Worked" bigger corn, apples, no bad bugs, no bad fungus and that was one big elephant in Oklahoma.
Nice, but lets remember for millions of years the earth (the thing you are living on) needed none of these chemicals because she made them herself in a symbiotic relationship with these plants. Yes, at least as far as a periodic table is concerned the plant uses the same chemicals rather getting these chemicals from organic methods or not, It's the process of getting these chemicals that differs.
The difference for me is: The process of soil, things in it, fauna (microherd) and flora (plants) go through to grow a plant. You may notice I say grow a plant rather than feed a plant although it does this too, I think more along the lines of feed the soil. A process the earth has been going through for millions and millions+ of years.
A non-organic (chemical) method uses chemicals readily available to the plant.No problem you say, but look closely at the plant that has been grown organically and one that hasn’t. The cells are healthier, more vitamins, the sugars are balanced with acids. A rose company recommends a line of organic products to fertilize their roses. Why? A rose will only exhibit it’s true scent, color, and shape when grown in soil with a healthy and thriving microbial presence. It comes down to the microbes ofa million years ago, it can’t be done right without them. (Even miracle grow tells you to use mulch, or they did on the instructions last I looked 20 or more years ago). It is a process the plants and the earth have grown up with.
I would go into how this chain of microbes and life lead right up to us but I’m tiered so I’ll just leave some links for those with open minds. If we ignore it or kill it off, we are dead, not next week or next decade, but some of the major think tanks tell us maybe next century (not necessarily because or non-organic farming but because of non-organic living).
Love and peace

http://www.fungi.com/mycogrow/amaranthus.html

www.microbeworld.org/news/articles/biggest.aspx
www.acresusa.com

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just beautiful.

milk is made the way it is for a good reason, and he thinks organic growing takes too long

lol. thanks for clearing that up.

after thinkin for a good five minutes, I've realized you weren't serious when you said 'huh what' after realizing that, I've decided I need more sleep. so nighty night!

honestly I wanted to just type a "?" but they insist that you have atleast 10 charaters in your post. But seriously I'm glad that this thread has had a good amount of discussion on it. I think it is definately something that everyone in the gardening community should discuss.

Thunder where are you...come out and play. I had a fish taco last night so I'm ready for blood. Pretty much vegetarian but a guy has got to go on the hunt once and a while.

lmao organick.

regret (this aint a bash, just having some fun with that rose company's comment here because they specifically mention soil, hehe) "A rose company recommends a line of organic products to fertilize their roses. Why? A rose will only exhibit it’s true scent, color, and shape when grown in soil with a healthy and thriving microbial presence.

but but but..... If i use ALL organic nutrients in my aeroponic system, wouldnt i be growing organic then? Or is organic growing specifically reserved for people who use dirt and mulch?

I'll even go one further , say I'm using RAINWATER in my system, Organic nutes/fertilizers and let the plants absorb what they need from the atmosphere of my room without any additives, could my product not be considered organically grown?

Its not difficult to find the info you need as far as things like "microherd, fauna, compost, mulch" etc. are concerned. heck if you really want to understand those things, go look real close at a rain forest or the great Redwood forests in B.C. Stare at the floor and see how it supports the immense abundance of fauna there.

Now, saying that; is it considered non-organic if you replicate as many of those factors as you can whilst growing in a different medium? Thats what i dont understand, never a clear answer or a simple, straightforward explanation. If the medium were the determining factor between organic and non-organic growing, then all of you organic growers out there are not true organic growers. I'm sure you dont have a rain forest in your basement or back yard. Only growing in a rain forest or similar type environment could you then consider yourselves true organic growers.

All of us soil growers, organic growers and hydro growers using only organic nutes and all other organic variables are still only trying our "best" to replicate a true "organic" environment. Therefore, I don't think there is any distinguishable difference in the way we grow, except for medium if using all organic variables.
We're all doing exactly the same thing without the benefit of a TRUE organic environment, therefore there isn't a difference, unless you're privy to a complete, unadulterated "organic" environment. Since there isn't a place left like that on earth anymore due to mankind's own recklessness and ignorance. We'll all have to travel back in time at least 3 or 4 hundred years to be TRUE ORGANIC GROWERS!!!!! Hahahaaa.

Cling tenaciously to my loincloth while I fly you to FREEEEEDOM!!!!!
Peace all, love sex and smoke.


No such thing as growing "organic" in my "opinion" hhehee ( unless an organic is the guy that fixes penises?)

thunderchunkie said:

lmao organick.

regret (this aint a bash, just having some fun with that rose company's comment here because they specifically mention soil, hehe) "A rose company recommends a line of organic products to fertilize their roses. Why? A rose will only exhibit it’s true scent, color, and shape when grown in soil with a healthy and thriving microbial presence.

but but but..... If i use ALL organic nutrients in my aeroponic system, wouldnt i be growing organic then? Or is organic growing specifically reserved for people who use dirt and mulch?

I'll even go one further , say I'm using RAINWATER in my system, Organic nutes/fertilizers and let the plants absorb what they need from the atmosphere of my room without any additives, could my product not be considered organically grown?

Its not difficult to find the info you need as far as things like "microherd, fauna, compost, mulch" etc. are concerned. heck if you really want to understand those things, go look real close at a rain forest or the great Redwood forests in B.C. Stare at the floor and see how it supports the immense abundance of fauna there.

Now, saying that; is it considered non-organic if you replicate as many of those factors as you can whilst growing in a different medium? Thats what i dont understand, never a clear answer or a simple, straightforward explanation. If the medium were the determining factor between organic and non-organic growing, then all of you organic growers out there are not true organic growers. I'm sure you dont have a rain forest in your basement or back yard. Only growing in a rain forest or similar type environment could you then consider yourselves true organic growers.

All of us soil growers, organic growers and hydro growers using only organic nutes and all other organic variables are still only trying our "best" to replicate a true "organic" environment. Therefore, I don't think there is any distinguishable difference in the way we grow, except for medium if using all organic variables.
We're all doing exactly the same thing without the benefit of a TRUE organic environment, therefore there isn't a difference, unless you're privy to a complete, unadulterated "organic" environment. Since there isn't a place left like that on earth anymore due to mankind's own recklessness and ignorance. We'll all have to travel back in time at least 3 or 4 hundred years to be TRUE ORGANIC GROWERS!!!!! Hahahaaa.

Cling tenaciously to my loincloth while I fly you to FREEEEEDOM!!!!!
Peace all, love sex and smoke.


No such thing as growing "organic" in my "opinion" hhehee ( unless an organic is the guy that fixes penises?)

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Ponderous, just fucking ponderous.