Living Soil LED Grow - Deficiencies? Light Stress?

getogrow

Well-Known Member
I've been lurking about this problem for awhile now. This seems to be the best explanation I've seen. I see alot of witch hunts on here most of which are started from under l.e.d.
My luck is this is my first crack under lights and its had me scratching my head feeling lost.
Biggest reservation I have about raising my lights is the bud density on the back side. I can come in with lower temps at night to help it along (observation from outdoor runs is cold mornings = tight buds). I'd just hate to be in here wasting time for fluff.
I "think" this is where us hps guys go wrong.... we assume that them leds are pussys compared to hid. I think we may be wrong. Leds dont spread very well without the help of other lights next to um as to where HID spreads a decent distance from the bulb..... Either way the number guys got me confused. The leds also have more usable light so thats even more reason to eat more.
The QB boards are so little its hard to compare them but i believe 500 watts of leds has more usable light then a 1k hps. I "think" the dead center of the hps is brighter then anything else but 12" to the side , i think the leds have higher numbers.
Oyur problems come in when they post the numbers from certain heights. i think their version of low numbers is high compared to hps. I know a guy who runs at least 30" from the canopy with leds and its nowhere near fluff. I hope some of this makes sense....
 

jHands

Active Member
I solved all my issues by backing off my light intensity and/or distance. I also have noticed that the 660 NM spectrum can make or break a soil a grow. Too much, plants burn and/or finish too early. The biggest thing though, move the lights away. Run strains that stack hard and you’ll hit your numbers. Your effective canopy depth will be about 18 inches, so prune everything below that IMO. I also bumped my room temps up to 83-85, as leaf surface temps in LED grows are always lower and can throw your VPD chart off.

LED’s produce full spectrum light, and it’s intense light. You’ll never be able to run them at the strength DWC hydro/flood tables guys do. My theory is that the hydro guys get away with it because they’re blasting plants that are taking in mostly water and only being flooded with food once in a while. If you look at my previous posts, you’ll find that my theory goes more light, more transpiration, more drinking, more nutes. I’ve never seen guys running coco with LED’s slammed on the canopy. If there’s nutes available 24/7, you can’t run as much light because the plant will drink too much and therefore, eat too much. I think a lot of guys running hydro are running too much light and it’s wasteful, in addition to their whole set up being wasteful. That said, you’ll still hit roughly the same numbers if you veg long enough to get plants with a root mass large enough to accommodate lots of light. I’m producing fat sticky colas running my fixtures at around 70% of max power. No problems. Find the balancing point for your strain and fixtures. If your fixture is dimmable, I’d suggest you hit your near peak power early in flower and let the plant “grow into” its preferred PAR measurement. From there, once the stretch is over, you can add more light intensity slowly to increase swell size, watching leaf tips for burn.

Haven’t been back here in a while. Reading this thread shows me how much plant science and behavior I’ve learned since starting lol.
 

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getogrow

Well-Known Member
I solved all my issues by backing off my light intensity and/or distance. I also have noticed that the 660 NM spectrum can make or break a soil a grow. Too much, plants burn and/or finish too early. The biggest thing though, move the lights away. Run strains that stack hard and you’ll hit your numbers. Your effective canopy depth will be about 18 inches, so prune everything below that IMO. I also bumped my room temps up to 83-85, as leaf surface temps in LED grows are always lower and can throw your VPD chart off.

LED’s produce full spectrum light, and it’s intense light. You’ll never be able to run them at the strength DWC hydro/flood tables guys do. My theory is that the hydro guys get away with it because they’re blasting plants that are taking in mostly water and only being flooded with food once in a while. If you look at my previous posts, you’ll find that my theory goes more light, more transpiration, more drinking, more nutes. I’ve never seen guys running coco with LED’s slammed on the canopy. If there’s nutes available 24/7, you can’t run as much light because the plant will drink too much and therefore, eat too much. I think a lot of guys running hydro are running too much light and it’s wasteful, in addition to their whole set up being wasteful. That said, you’ll still hit roughly the same numbers if you veg long enough to get plants with a root mass large enough to accommodate lots of light. I’m producing fat sticky colas running my fixtures at around 70% of max power. No problems. Find the balancing point for your strain and fixtures. If your fixture is dimmable, I’d suggest you hit your near peak power early in flower and let the plant “grow into” its preferred PAR measurement. From there, once the stretch is over, you can add more light intensity slowly to increase swell size, watching leaf tips for burn.

Haven’t been back here in a while. Reading this thread shows me how much plant science and behavior I’ve learned since starting lol.
Thank you for your experience. This is the info i need to carry on with leds.
Although i still think the issue is kinda opposite from your post. my theory is that if there was ENOUGH food 24/7 then we wouldnt have an issue at all. The hydro guys do have food 24/7 and i believe they can run the lights stronger. Organic guys are relying on microbes to feed the plant.....i dont think thats happining quick enough for all that light.
 

jHands

Active Member
Thank you for your experience. This is the info i need to carry on with leds.
Although i still think the issue is kinda opposite from your post. my theory is that if there was ENOUGH food 24/7 then we wouldnt have an issue at all. The hydro guys do have food 24/7 and i believe they can run the lights stronger. Organic guys are relying on microbes to feed the plant.....i dont think thats happining quick enough for all that light.
Makes a lot of sense, on that side of things, though on my side of things, my symptoms end up looking like burn/nitrogen tox when I use too much light. My soil is bangin. The castings I get are hot. I’m mixing another batch next weekend and I dropped the castings to 15/20% of the mix from 33.
 

GrimRe4

Active Member
Makes a lot of sense, on that side of things, though on my side of things, my symptoms end up looking like burn/nitrogen tox when I use too much light. My soil is bangin. The castings I get are hot. I’m mixing another batch next weekend and I dropped the castings to 15/20% of the mix from 33.
Something else I will keep an eye on. I went in heavy on castings as well. I appreciate you coming back to share your wisdom.
 

GrimRe4

Active Member
I "think" this is where us hps guys go wrong.... we assume that them leds are pussys compared to hid. I think we may be wrong. Leds dont spread very well without the help of other lights next to um as to where HID spreads a decent distance from the bulb..... Either way the number guys got me confused. The leds also have more usable light so thats even more reason to eat more.
The QB boards are so little its hard to compare them but i believe 500 watts of leds has more usable light then a 1k hps. I "think" the dead center of the hps is brighter then anything else but 12" to the side , i think the leds have higher numbers.
Oyur problems come in when they post the numbers from certain heights. i think their version of low numbers is high compared to hps. I know a guy who runs at least 30" from the canopy with leds and its nowhere near fluff. I hope some of this makes sense....
This makes me feel a whole lot better for sure
 

jHands

Active Member
I run my LED’s on the ceiling, sometimes 3 ft away from the tops, and still have solid nugs down to about 18 inches of canopy penetration. You’re gonna be fine. The concern about LED larf came from first gen fixtures.
 

loco41

Well-Known Member
I run my LED’s on the ceiling, sometimes 3 ft away from the tops, and still have solid nugs down to about 18 inches of canopy penetration. You’re gonna be fine. The concern about LED larf came from first gen fixtures.
I was just smoking some bottom bud off my last run and its dense as a rock.

I enjoyed re-reading through this thread as I find that I keep my lights a bit higher than what others running hydro are using also. The pictures I see from them are awesome and the buds look amazing. I just find that my plants seem to be happiest when my lights are up around 18-20 inches from the tops. I was thinking about grabbing some langeinite to help a bit with the possible Mg deficiency for future grows, but just added some greensand to the soils/worm bins so maybe that will be a nice little boost when it starts becoming available. I have a tiny bit of "tiger stripes", light yellowing in between leaf veins, on a few leaves of one plant right now, but overall they look pretty healthy. A little epsom and a top dress hopefully sorted that out a bit.
 

jHands

Active Member
I was just smoking some bottom bud off my last run and its dense as a rock.

I enjoyed re-reading through this thread as I find that I keep my lights a bit higher than what others running hydro are using also. The pictures I see from them are awesome and the buds look amazing. I just find that my plants seem to be happiest when my lights are up around 18-20 inches from the tops. I was thinking about grabbing some langeinite to help a bit with the possible Mg deficiency for future grows, but just added some greensand to the soils/worm bins so maybe that will be a nice little boost when it starts becoming available. I have a tiny bit of "tiger stripes", light yellowing in between leaf veins, on a few leaves of one plant right now, but overall they look pretty healthy. A little epsom and a top dress hopefully sorted that out a bit.
So are you of the mindset that magnesium deficiency is a real thing in soil under LED’s?
 

loco41

Well-Known Member
So are you of the mindset that magnesium deficiency is a real thing in soil under LED’s?
Not sure to be honest, but was just my initial thought. I figure a simple topdress and epsom would be pretty well rounded for a lot of possible soil issues, but I also did raise the lights a couple inches as well up to 20 inches where they are now. So really can't say exactly what did what, but haven't seen anything get worse over this week and plants still nice and green and praying.

I'm still a really new grower and this is only my second grow with both these boards and photo periods, so take what I say as purely just my thoughts on what I think I see. I took this picture on the 20th, just a reference for what I am talking about.
 

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jHands

Active Member
Yep. When I see something like that, I tend to think “I’m probably pushing them slightly too hard.” Whether I back off or not depends on where in the life cycle the plant is.
 

loco41

Well-Known Member
Yep. When I see something like that, I tend to think “I’m probably pushing them slightly too hard.” Whether I back off or not depends on where in the life cycle the plant is.
Awesome, I'll try to stay on top of light distance for the time being. Plants are like 3 weeks into 12/12 now so still a ways to go. Ideally I can keep them in this praying and happy state for a while longer.

Are you still using the progrowtech lights? If so, are you a lot happier with them now that you have your grows down a little bit more? I just looked them up and they seem like some cool lights. I've been trying out the DIY route of leds lately but would love to incorporate some sort of mono leds to supplement something to have full control over all the spectrums like your light can. I feel like the diy led/organics go hand in hand for me. So many different things to play around with to ultimately grow the same thing. It's nice to have a constructive hobby for once..
 

jHands

Active Member
Awesome, I'll try to stay on top of light distance for the time being. Plants are like 3 weeks into 12/12 now so still a ways to go. Ideally I can keep them in this praying and happy state for a while longer.

Are you still using the progrowtech lights? If so, are you a lot happier with them now that you have your grows down a little bit more? I just looked them up and they seem like some cool lights. I've been trying out the DIY route of leds lately but would love to incorporate some sort of mono leds to supplement something to have full control over all the spectrums like your light can. I feel like the diy led/organics go hand in hand for me. So many different things to play around with to ultimately grow the same thing. It's nice to have a constructive hobby for once..
I do like them much better now that I’ve learned how to use them. I was learning the basics of growing simultaneously, so the learning curve was steeper than usual for a newb.
 

loco41

Well-Known Member
I do like them much better now that I’ve learned how to use them. I was learning the basics of growing simultaneously, so the learning curve was steeper than usual for a newb.
Nice and I definitely know the feeling of trying to learn the basics. I still dont top/train my plants at all, really only clip a few leaves here and there. This is like my 5th grow so I have a ton to learn and most likely forget still. Every run I feel like I figure it out just a little bit more, so that's always promising. The one plus I have in my favor is only having used cobs and boards so far, so all my learning has been done under leds and organics.

What distance have you found to work best for you in flower with your lights?
 

jHands

Active Member
Nice and I definitely know the feeling of trying to learn the basics. I still dont top/train my plants at all, really only clip a few leaves here and there. This is like my 5th grow so I have a ton to learn and most likely forget still. Every run I feel like I figure it out just a little bit more, so that's always promising. The one plus I have in my favor is only having used cobs and boards so far, so all my learning has been done under leds and organics.

What distance have you found to work best for you in flower with your lights?
Distance doesn’t matter. Gotta measure PAR. If you’re running LED’s, invest in a PAR meter. Even if it’s a mediocre one, putting a number value to the light intensity that cannabis likes at various stages of growth and propagation is huge. Plus it allows you to fine tune strains you run repeatedly.
 
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getogrow

Well-Known Member
Distance doesn’t matter. Gotta measure PAR. If you’re running LED’s, invest in a PAR meter. Even if it’s a mediocre one, putting a number value to the light intensity that cannabis likes at various stages of growth and propagation is huge. Plus it allows you to fine tune strains you run repeatedly.
If us hps guys had a par meter we could easily show everything i been theorying. Im gonna grab one to see if im right in saying the hps is weaker. (except maybe the 6" circle in the dead center)
 

jHands

Active Member
If us hps guys had a par meter we could easily show everything i been theorying. Im gonna grab one to see if im right in saying the hps is weaker. (except maybe the 6" circle in the dead center)
Ehhhhhh “weaker” is a term that is going out the window when it comes to lighting these days. IMO, a plasma DE HPS bulb is likely throwing out more PAR than today’s LED fixtures. The difference? That color spectrum is incomplete and doesn’t force the same nutrient uptake that a pure white light will influence. HPS is in the 2000-2500K range, if my memory serves me properly. Stretch in first few weeks of flower has always been a concern, so guys run 6500K the first few weeks. This changes what kinda nutrients the plant up takes, and forces it to stay squattier and stack nodes. PAR is PAR - a quantum sensor doesn’t discern what color of light it’s reading, just how much. You may very well be able to throw more PAR at a plant when using non-full spectrum light. That’s my theory. There are a lot of articles about light spectrum and plant behavior on Apogee instrument’s website - they’re the folks they manufacture my PAR meter.

 
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getogrow

Well-Known Member
Thanks for explaining that better for me. I agree 100%
So you may be right about my "test" ....it may show more par but its not usable so its just heat. Thats also probably the reason they dont "compare" to hps with the meters. I just need some numbers to go with my lights. im about to spend big money on them fixtures .....i wanna cover everything before making a purchase like that.
Im getting most of my info off here. I find all the ol school growers that decide to switch , then they have problems. I wanna figure out some of their problems before getting into my own. And when i say "ol school grower" i dont mean 50 years experience , i just mean anyone whos been growing for awhile with no problems. Even if they get small yields.....i dont care about that , long as the user knows how to treat a plant.

What i have come up with is that a 480-500watt fixture will replace a 1k hps no problem. (im still investigating the newer 600+watt ones)
I will probably need more Mg overall in all the girls.
I might have to feed a lil more overall.
Thats as far as ive gotten so far.
 

jHands

Active Member
Thanks for explaining that better for me. I agree 100%
So you may be right about my "test" ....it may show more par but its not usable so its just heat. Thats also probably the reason they dont "compare" to hps with the meters. I just need some numbers to go with my lights. im about to spend big money on them fixtures .....i wanna cover everything before making a purchase like that.
Im getting most of my info off here. I find all the ol school growers that decide to switch , then they have problems. I wanna figure out some of their problems before getting into my own. And when i say "ol school grower" i dont mean 50 years experience , i just mean anyone whos been growing for awhile with no problems. Even if they get small yields.....i dont care about that , long as the user knows how to treat a plant.

What i have come up with is that a 480-500watt fixture will replace a 1k hps no problem. (im still investigating the newer 600+watt ones)
I will probably need more Mg overall in all the girls.
I might have to feed a lil more overall.
Thats as far as ive gotten so far.
Do you need to feed more? Or do you need to let the soil do it’s thing, and adjust the lights accordingly? That’s the point in living soil...

What sized footprint are you attempting to light and with what fixtures?
 
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