Organic no till, probiotic, knf, jadam, vermicomposting, soil mixes, sips etc... Q & A

outliergenetix

outliergenetix

Well-Known Member
Bignutes said:
I'm getting there but just bought a bag of chicken shit fert with food web additives, couldn't pass up on the price. I like coco but have found dolomite lime raises ph too much so now add gypsum instead. Rice hulls make the soil seem chalky, it's a weird texture. Testing still in process. I'm really getting into making my own stuff like dandelion leaves are 1-0.15-1.18, it's a pretty good ratio for flower and they are everywhere. Also wheat bran at 2.7-2.9-1.6, alfalfa at 3-2-2. Fish emulsion at 5-1-1. Seems like with all four of those it's good for all stages.
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i hear ya. i started my soil which i've been recycling for cpl years now with cow&chicken manure/coco/castings and bokashi with some azomite etc so i also bought stuff to start it. i have since been adding in my own organic compost from my worm bins, roach bins or compost pile and occasionally i will add some more coco to keep the organic matter and inert coco ratio where i like it. even still though i keep about 4-5 down to earth organic ammendments on hand(kelp meal, alfalfa meal, neem meal, langbenite) as well as 3 differetn types of guano some high p some high n and one in the middle. i also keep dolemite lime for ph up adjustments to soil not water and ferous sulfate for ph down in soil again not water ph. i also keep some cal/mag and silica and humates on hand. ik sounds like alot for closed loop haha. but at this point i mainly use them as top dressing or to adjust for any issues that pop up in a plant with diff needs or my soil drifted ph or something
all that said i do top dress with different ratios of those ammendments at the flip as a precaution since my soil is not an exact science and i can never be 100% sure it has everything for the current grow since i am recycling it or adding to it all the time, imo the top dressing just gets composted into the soil instead of me adding it to the bulk soil container and having to mix it between grows each time even if it was not neded for the current plants.
 
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outliergenetix

outliergenetix

Well-Known Member
Bignutes said:
I'm getting there but just bought a bag of chicken shit fert with food web additives, couldn't pass up on the price. I like coco but have found dolomite lime raises ph too much so now add gypsum instead. Rice hulls make the soil seem chalky, it's a weird texture. Testing still in process. I'm really getting into making my own stuff like dandelion leaves are 1-0.15-1.18, it's a pretty good ratio for flower and they are everywhere. Also wheat bran at 2.7-2.9-1.6, alfalfa at 3-2-2. Fish emulsion at 5-1-1. Seems like with all four of those it's good for all stages.
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tbh i have yet to use my dolemite lime lol. my soil for whatever reason has been drifting up. i was actually battling all kinds of issues on a recent grow and concluded it was ph issue because nothing was fixing it and the symptoms were varied. i shoulda done it earlier but when i tested my soil ph it was like 8 lol. so for that grow in progress i started watering with water ph'd to 5 so it would drift through the ranges on its way to 8 while the ferrous sulfate took 1-3 months to make a permanent adjustment to the entire soil batch i have. i havemore than i use to be clear. i have all the soil in my pots and another bin that is always cooking then i havethe other compost bins i mentioned before to. but yea i have not had issue with drifting down yet. i think it went up from one of the mineral additives i forget tbh. i wanna say adding allot of azomite or langbenite or somethign is how it got so high. i dont rememebr what i concluded was the cause at this time
right on with the dandelion ratios and all!!!! that is how i do it. i pay attention to soluble and all very closle. this is why i use langbenite actually it is the only way to get that k on demand to balance out the p
im thinking next i may add or play with some fermented plant juices. my issue there though is i dont ever bring stuff from outside indoors anymore as i had mites a long time ago doing that. i do use pine needles as a top mulch from outside but i boil em in a giant crab pot first
also, i add allot of water from my coffe grounds or pasta and veggies i boil for food. boiling veggies leaves allot of soluble npk and minerals in the water. bean water adds sulfur and allot to and pasta water provides carbs for the critters and microbes :) pro tip lol
 
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Bignutes

Bignutes

Well-Known Member
Wow, like the stuff you do! I like your protip, going to have to save my pasta water too.

I am a little concerned with bringing stuff from outdoors but I think if I make green manure out of the dandelion leaves and partly cook it in the vitamix it should kill all things. I am also thinking of adding silt from the river, we are 50 km from the Rockies and I feel that why buy glacial dust when it's deposited out my back door, going to cook it in the oven first. The rocks in the gravel bars are a real mix of everything and shit just flat out grows in this silt.

If you have a ph problem nail it with lemon juice and water a few times with or without plants in it. I did this at the suggestion of @DoubleAtotheRON and it works great. I used something like ph 3.4 water on 7.6ish soil and it brought it down to 7.1ish permanently. Plants didn't mind either if done periodically. It needs to be real low to take the buffering capacity out of soil. Just make sure the water is well buffered at less than 4, ideally imo get it to 3.2-3.5. Almost a full 1 litre lemon juice bottle per 5 gal pail kinda thing.
 
outliergenetix

outliergenetix

Well-Known Member
Bignutes said:
Wow, like the stuff you do! I like your protip, going to have to save my pasta water too.

I am a little concerned with bringing stuff from outdoors but I think if I make green manure out of the dandelion leaves and partly cook it in the vitamix it should kill all things. I am also thinking of adding silt from the river, we are 50 km from the Rockies and I feel that why buy glacial dust when it's deposited out my back door, going to cook it in the oven first. The rocks in the gravel bars are a real mix of everything and shit just flat out grows in this silt.

If you have a ph problem nail it with lemon juice and water a few times with or without plants in it. I did this at the suggestion of @DoubleAtotheRON and it works great. I used something like ph 3.4 water on 7.6ish soil and it brought it down to 7.1ish permanently. Plants didn't mind either if done periodically. It needs to be real low to take the buffering capacity out of soil. Just make sure the water is well buffered at less than 4, ideally imo get it to 3.2-3.5. Almost a full 1 litre lemon juice bottle per 5 gal pail kinda thing.
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i have to disagree with the lemon thing to a degree, only because i used limes for years to ph my water and rid my tap water of chloramines. i've actually mentioned it in several threads myself to recommend it to ppl on here. i only recently stopped and dont ph my water at all anymore, i still use limes occasionally but only to to rid water of chloramines so they aren't getting chloramines with every watering because too much chloramine is bad for microbes. if you didnt know that is the real benefit of using citrus fruit to ph water, it's that the citric acid aka ascorbic acid, neutralizes chloramines. you can use vitamin C powder or tablets to but why not just use the fruit right lol/. anyway what i was driving at though regarding that advice you got is water ph with ph up/dow or limes or lemons or whatever really doesn't have any long lasting effect or really any effect at all on soil ph. my soil went up to 8 as i said recently and i was using limes then with every watering as i said. lemons and limes are great to add but it isnt gonna effect ph of soil . the sugars though feed microbes about 1/2-1 lime will ph about 5 gallons of water from 7 to 6 approx and neutralize chloramines if you dont have an ro system.
btw i do realize allot of articles say lemon or citrus will lower soil ph and ik you had that experience but the truth is that is not usually a long lasting change. it really isn't even always changing it. in many cases it can be more a product of the poor way we have to test soil ph. saturating soil and ph'ing the run off is not really accurate but its all we got. if you want to make it a little more accurate though what you do is saturate the soil till right before you get any run off then let it sit for an hour so the soil/solution equilibrium comes to rest. then run a little more water through it and check that run off. changing the ph of soil is not as easy as changing the ph of the water. there is allot of chemistry going on there. the only or most reliable way if ferrous sulfate or elemental sulfur. you will even read aluminum sulfate works, and like a lemon it sorta does but not to the more long lasting permanent effects of ferrous sulfate or elemental sulfur. fyi iron sulfate is same as ferrous sulfate
i get most of my information from agricultural sources not cannabis sources. the cannabis community is littered with shitty info passed down over the years. more accurate info exists on sites and sources that are meant for professional farmers more so than ppl who's only growing experience is cannabis, even if those ppl are excellent at growing cannabis i find it's better to use a more general gardening approach than following cannabis growers when learning
 
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Bignutes

Bignutes

Well-Known Member
Ph drift will happen if ppm of water- calcium carbonate is 150 ppm or more, the reverse is true to if you drop it. The key is to buffer the water to the acidic side by a lot thats why i recommend getting it really low less than 3.5. Distilled or ro water takes ph changes readily and wont work very well unless you add a lot of lemon juice to buffer it well, tap water requires even more lemon juice as its already buffered to the basic side but either one will work as long as its buffered enough. True there is some chemistry going on but it's not that complicated. Acid rain works the same way to acidity soil, if this was as difficult to swing the ph as your suggesting then it would need to rain acid rain 24/7 for this to occur.

Ascorbic acid is different than citric acid, two entirely different compounds.
 
outliergenetix

outliergenetix

Well-Known Member
Bignutes said:
Ph drift will happen if ppm of water- calcium carbonate is 150 ppm or more, the reverse is true to if you drop it. The key is to buffer the water to the acidic side by a lot thats why i recommend getting it really low less than 3.5. Distilled or ro water takes ph changes readily and wont work very well unless you add a lot of lemon juice to buffer it well, tap water requires even more lemon juice as its already buffered to the basic side but either one will work as long as its buffered enough. True there is some chemistry going on but it's not that complicated. Acid rain works the same way to acidity soil, if this was as difficult to swing the ph as your suggesting then it would need to rain acid rain 24/7 for this to occur.

Ascorbic acid is different than citric acid, two entirely different compounds.
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the same thing you are saying about ro water is true of soil to though. it doesnt readily take to ph change. on top of that certain types of soil do so more readily. clay soil;'s ph for example is more readily changed. as for acid rain there is quit a bit of chemistry happening to i'm fairly certain, allot having to do with sulfur compounds like sulfer dioxide in the air, which i beleive are in large quantities in acid rain, which are ironically the compounds that will actually change soil ph for real. i.e aluminum sulfate(thoigh not as well), iron/ferrous sulfate, elemental sulfur. acid rain is acid rain not just because it has an acidic ph, but because of how it becomes acidic. in other words it is the sulfur dioxode etc that creates the acid rain and in tyurn puts the sulfur and it's compounds into the soil to make it also acidic im fairly certain, of course nothing is absolute or black and white, but in a broad sense i think this is true. can't say i am an acid rain expert though lol.
on a less scientific note though i would think a lemon orchard in nature not farmed would kill itself off if lemons themselves had an drasticlong lasting effect on soil ph. the reason i say this is the ever dropping and decomposing lemons falling off the tree enmasse anually would make the soil after decades have a ridiculous low ph and it would always be getting less over time. ik it's a juvenile and exxagerated example but i think it holds some water. besides all ik is i used limes every watering and my ph always drifts up as i said. i only stopped using limes after the ph issue when i saw first hand how little getting water ph between 6-7 really didnt matter with soil. this is again because like ro water you mentioned soil is resistant to ph changes naturally .
thanks for the info btw
 
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L

loco41

Well-Known Member
Really enjoyed your guy's conversation yesterday, lots of good stuff to mull over. I agree with the rice hulls adding a weird texture to the soil when initially mixed in, but I personally like them a lot. I like that they break fully down into the soil after some time, but not too fast. I got some BAS when I initially built my first soil a few years ago and have recycled fresh hulls on most recycles since. They have since all disappeared as I haven't bought new hulls and ran out a while back, but they served their purpose for aeration and have now just added to the organic material in the mix (i know I read somewhere along the way that they are high in silica too, so another blessing). I did use some pumice as well for aeration, but I will probably continue use the hulls as half the aeration in all my mixes to come. A local shop near me just started carrying hulls at a reasonable price for 4 cu ft (not in colorado anymore so shipping my "ideal" aeration is too absurd). Not sure what I will use for the other half of aeration in my next mixes, but will continue looking. That same shop with the hulls carries some pumice, but it is pretty fine, so not really sold on using it just yet. Any thoughts on some common locally found alternatives to pumice/perlite?
 
Bignutes

Bignutes

Well-Known Member
loco41 said:
Really enjoyed your guy's conversation yesterday, lots of good stuff to mull over. I agree with the rice hulls adding a weird texture to the soil when initially mixed in, but I personally like them a lot. I like that they break fully down into the soil after some time, but not too fast. I got some BAS when I initially built my first soil a few years ago and have recycled fresh hulls on most recycles since. They have since all disappeared as I haven't bought new hulls and ran out a while back, but they served their purpose for aeration and have now just added to the organic material in the mix (i know I read somewhere along the way that they are high in silica too, so another blessing). I did use some pumice as well for aeration, but I will probably continue use the hulls as half the aeration in all my mixes to come. A local shop near me just started carrying hulls at a reasonable price for 4 cu ft (not in colorado anymore so shipping my "ideal" aeration is too absurd). Not sure what I will use for the other half of aeration in my next mixes, but will continue looking. That same shop with the hulls carries some pumice, but it is pretty fine, so not really sold on using it just yet. Any thoughts on some common locally found alternatives to pumice/perlite?
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I agree rice hulls are a really good amendment. I find they are the best to break up either compacted or gummy, clay like soil and on a volume per volume basis are highly effective, even more so than coco. Where coco shines is it's moisture retention. But where rice hulls really shine is when they decompose their NPK is 1.9-0.48-0.81, C:N is 14:1, ph is 7.0, it's like the gift that keeps on giving, and especially good flower ratio and since it's there in volume it's overall amount for npk is actually quite a large reserve of slow release nutrients. All really good numbers along with micronutrients, the same can't be said for coco. When coco fibres break down they end up consuming more ca,mg which if your in tune with shouldn't matter but you have to babysit the soil with coco. Rice hulls also feed the food chain with a mycelium mat but coco when mixed with soil 40:60 ratio has given me earthworms.

Research article on rice hulls:
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Its got me thinking from my two soil recipes, one a coco based modified subcool soil and the other a rice hull soil in the SIPS that a 10-15% coco, 10-15% rice hull, 10-15% pumice would be an ideal soil for a 12" high pot, sip or no sip. My subcool soil in a plastic 15" high pot is moist right to the top and plants are waterlogged a little too much. My fabric 10 gal (12" high) rice hull soil is dry for first 3-4 inches, my modified subcool soil in fabric 10 gal pots (again 12" high) is moist to the top with surface roots under the plastic cap. Possibly too wet below but plants seem to be doing good in it.

The roots don't circle the pot in my rice soil and in a plastic pot it acts more like a fabric pot. Coco does circle the pot moreso but nowwhere near as bad as a heavier soil. Pumice, perlite don't even come close to providing this as rice hulls. I do add pumice just to keep a base level of aeration once the hulls decompose and it works well in a sip wick. A 60% dry peat to 40% pumice sems to work well as a wick.

Find rice hulls at a brewers store, not all carry it ime, about a third of the places I contacted do and two places were willing to sell a 50 lb bag to me, one of which I picked up for $50.
 
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BluntMoniker

BluntMoniker

Well-Known Member
Got a question for anyone with experience making LABS..

I made my rice wash, tomorrow will be day 7.. it LOOKS right compared to what hyroot's looks like in the vid, but want to be sure the smell of rancid ass (for lack of better description) is normal lol

I'm sure fermented rice starch isnt supposed to smell pleasant, but before I move further along, was hoping someone with more experience can let me know what the rice wash normally smells like after a week
 
Avant_Gardener

Avant_Gardener

Active Member
BluntMoniker said:
Got a question for anyone with experience making LABS..

I made my rice wash, tomorrow will be day 7.. it LOOKS right compared to what hyroot's looks like in the vid, but want to be sure the smell of rancid ass (for lack of better description) is normal lol

I'm sure fermented rice starch isnt supposed to smell pleasant, but before I move further along, was hoping someone with more experience can let me know what the rice wash normally smells like after a wee

It sounds like it went too far south. As for as scent goes, a lot depends on you environment warmer or a colder will be a big factor. Then for smell
it should smell slightly sweet. To me its like sweet milk. I make a batch recently and it was ready 48 to 50 hours start to finish. I live in a sub-tropical
area. I hope this answers your question. Here's another video on making LABs
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P

P10p

Well-Known Member
Hate these types of threads where a poster comes in with his "let me teach you" attitude.

No dont teach me, tell me your findings and methods. I will then draw a sensible conclusion. Dont try to "school" people.

You just make yourself look like a jackass imo.
 
hyroot

hyroot

Well-Known Member
P10p said:
Hate these types of threads where a poster comes in with his "let me teach you" attitude.

No dont teach me, tell me your findings and methods. I will then draw a sensible conclusion. Dont try to "school" people.

You just make yourself look like a jackass imo.
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Sounds like your projecting. Please show me where I said Let me teach you. My initial post said

hyroot said:
I'm back. Did you miss me? I'm making this thread about everything organic to answer anyone's questions on how to do anything organic. I read through a bunch of threads in this section and I'm seeing a lot of misinformation.

Post any questions you might have and I'll do my best to answer them.

I will also post my tutorials here as well.
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You just made yourself out be a jack ass. newb I bet you still learned quite a bit from this thread

My tutorial are step by step on how to make specific ferments, imo's, and soil mixes that have been proven by millions of people over the last 85 years
 
Avant_Gardener

Avant_Gardener

Active Member
hyroot said:
Sounds like your projecting. Please show me where I said Let me teach you. My initial post said




You just made yourself out be a jack ass. newb I bet you still learned quite a bit from this thread

My tutorial are step by step on how to make specific ferments, imo's, and soil mixes that have been proven by millions of people over the last 85 years
Click to expand...
This tread was my primary catalyst for KNF techniques. I still have a ton of notes from here. I just wish the tread was more active. Much appreciation for all the information here.
 
MintyDreadlocks

MintyDreadlocks

Well-Known Member
hyroot said:
onto ferments. First How to make labs. lactic acid bacteria / lactobacillus.


I'm currently working on other ferment videos and diy sip tutorials. The ferment ones take a month to complete. I will post them soon
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boomarked. thanks for the upload chief kief. Who cares if you're teaching! We are lucky you are doing it free. People have high egos and need other hobbies other than growing dank. to humble them out a bit.
 
P

P10p

Well-Known Member
hyroot said:
Sounds like your projecting. Please show me where I said Let me teach you. My initial post said




You just made yourself out be a jack ass. newb I bet you still learned quite a bit from this thread

My tutorial are step by step on how to make specific ferments, imo's, and soil mixes that have been proven by millions of people over the last 85 years
Click to expand...

Not trying to degrade the wealth of good info here. But as true to form, you're pretty condecending.

You argue that protozoa are fungi, trying to one up the poster contradicting you.
 
JustBlazin

JustBlazin

Well-Known Member
great thread, about halfway thru
thanks hyroot
question is it ok to use alfalfa hay cubes made to feed horses? could i use this instead of buying alfalfa meal? its alot cheaper $20 for 50lb
would i have to do anything to it to be able to use it? i am starting a worm bin soon maybe it would be good for them?
or should i just buy regular alfalfa meal? theres also a animal feed store on my way home that sells all different feeds for farms and pets but unfortunately the website doesn't list what they have, ill have to stop in and check to see what they have. would rabbit food be alfalfa pellets?
any info would be greatly appreciated
Thanks
 
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