Question -Density; what creates the matter for a thick bud?

What makes the bud dense and thick? What is the science behind the excellerated growth of matter in a thick bud? What excatly does the advance staged growth nutrients provide that cause the advertised flower stage bud to get BIGGER. More growth to cause more then average denisty? In a week? Any comparison grows to see how much the late stage commercial products help in icreasing yield and or potency. Can you gaurantee more potency with certian late stage nutrients or is it "increase the chances" thing.

more like a "buy my product" thing.

High calyx ratio?

Many Indicas are known for really thick and dense buds, even Indica/Sativa hybrids with Indica dominant bud structure. Basically get a strain like an Afghan, a Kush, or a Nepalese Hash Plant. Using 'bud builders' on plant's that already have some of these characteristics can help you make thier buds even bigger. So I would start with the seeds of a hash-producing indica instead of something like a haze, if big tight buds are what you want.

then during flowering make sure it gets something with low N, like 5 or under. Nitrogen promotes taller plant growth and vigorous new growth (we dont care about that in flowering... Veg period is over!).

High P is good for creating bigger thicker buds than your variety would normally have. This is because phosphorus helps plants capture light during photosynthesis. look for 20 or above. Since the light will not be going toward new growing parts of the plant (your lower nitrogen levels will curtail that), it concentrates on the flowers it has created, helping to make the bud grow by adding more leaf mass to it.

Your K number should be relatively high, but not as high as your P number. Potassium is important to plants in all stages of growth. A K number of 10 is ok for flowering. It helps the plant fight diseases, it helps the stem stay strong even when nitrogen is cut back. It also helps plants open and close stomatas (think thats spelled right). Basically all the calyxs are covered with resin glands that, over the course of the last few weeks of flowering, open up and produce little trichomes of resin. I think the resin glands are composed of cells, and as the stomatas on these cell walls open up, THC is forced out of the gland. It happens slowly, and the THC is not runny or gooey or drippy, instead as each new bit gets added on to the pottom, they get taller, kind of like a stalagmite. Eventually they look like the little alien antennas we so love looking at under our 420 scopes.

This, I believe, Is a pretty decent answer to your question. I'm just a novice though, I'm sure someone with more knowledge than I could speak up. And Fdd2Blk, I think he also wants to know a little of the science behind which parts of the nutrients contribute to which parts of the flowering, and why. Not just, 'Which is the best brand?'.
No offence intended, I hope none is taken, but I would find it interesting if someone with as much knowledge as you would cover this subject as I tried to. That would be fuckin' sweet. I know it's not exactly the question he asked, but I think it will help heim, and all of us, understand at least what NPK numbers are appropriate for flowering and why they work the way they do? or did I do an ok job?

I want to add a disclaimer. I am not a scientist. This is just how I understand it to work, and some of my own ideas using common sense combined with what I know. I may not be a hundred percent correct... but I am right alot of the time.

Question: What makes buds dense?
Answer: Good light, proper air, and Excellent water with base Micro and Macro nutes

Edit because joes a quick typer...

You can use all the "bud Builders" you want but in the end it is so much more about light than anything...

A plant under a 1000 watt HPS with no additivies other than a base bloom forumla will average very close to one with all the extra "goodies"

It is 100% more about intense light than "bud" builders...


the science behind it is rather simple those "bud builders" provide sugars right away instead of the plant needing to spend energy to make them itsself.
Its light giving the plant adrenilin, instead of the plant making its own.

ganjagoddess said:

You can use all the "bud Builders" you want but in the end it is so much more about light than anything...

the science behind it is rather simple those "bud builders" provide sugars right away instead of the plant needing to spend energy to make them itsself.
Its light giving the plant adrenilin, instead of the plant making its own.

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- This is Quite true. Without light, all that other stuff about how your plant uses your N-P-K formulation does kinda go out the window. I mean, without light, it dies... without nutes, it still does fine so long as the soil isnt sterilized or something, just ends up a teeny bit smaller. This is also one of the reasons that your genetics determine how your bud turns out more than anything else, but thats for another thread.

- The differences are indeed minor, especially when you are talking about beefing trichs up right before harvest and what-not. And if you are doing that stuff, brand name isnt too important. It's all commercialized just like everything else now.

- GangaGoddess you always leave really good posts, and I'm usually glad to see when you have even posted on the same thread as me, much less made reference to me in your own post! Keep on giving good advice, because you always do.

I notice the better the light (close) : MH (VEG) and HPS (flower) in quality soil does fine. I used molasses for a a few waterings and I'm not sure if it was timing (week 4 of flower) or the molasses but the plant had rather larger then average daily growth; density wise. Some of the lower fan leafs appear to have gotten yellow - I am thinking OD on the sugar from molasses mixed with earth juice "bloom." I flushed, removed the yellow lower level fan leafs on a few plants - I figure the plant can utilize its energy growing up top and not waste energy in lower non yielding areas.

mikeandnaomi said:

I notice the better the light (close) : MH (VEG) and HPS (flower) in quality soil does fine. I used molasses for a a few waterings and I'm not sure if it was timing (week 4 of flower) or the molasses but the plant had rather larger then average daily growth; density wise. Some of the lower fan leafs appear to have gotten yellow - I am thinking OD on the sugar from molasses mixed with earth juice "bloom." I flushed, removed the yellow lower level fan leafs on a few plants - I figure the plant can utilize its energy growing up top and not waste energy in lower non yielding areas.

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If I'm not mistaken, the molasses helps the plant with the uptake of nutrients, right? instead of using the carbohydrates as we would? If I am wrong someone please correct me, I don't like being wrong lol. Anyway Flushing was a good choice, you should be doing that before harvest anyway.

This removing of lower foliage is good. I am planning on pruning off the bottom couple sets of branches on my bushier plants. they won't get enough light to become anything but tiny fluff balls so I might as well let the plant use its energy on stuff thats gonna be worth harvesting. ohhhhhhh Its starting to get there, I'm about to switch to flower in another week or two!!

OOH You have a diary here Joe?

Calcium and magnesium is resposible for the hardening of fruit and flowers.

t dub c said:

Calcium and magnesium is resposible for the hardening of fruit and flowers.

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And the light gives the plant the energy to take in CAL/MAG

more light=more energy/maximum energy=more/maximum uptake of nutes

i have learned that allowing the plants to form a tight root ball before transplanting, and doing so a number of times before reaching the final pot helps to achieve this. also, when i switched to fox farm nutes my buds became thicker, heavier and more dense.

The results I've achieved with Gravity have been amazing. They use kelp extract and of course their phospho is high. I don't know if kelp extract has anything to do with transportation in the zylem or phloem, but it has made my nugs feel like the denseness of a softball. Does anyone know if this could be actually the case?

ganjagoddess said:

And the light gives the plant the energy to take in CAL/MAG

more light=more energy/maximum energy=more/maximum uptake of nutes

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You obviously know what your saying - I'm using Earth Juice "Bloom" - held off on any more molasses (was turning lower fans a yellowish brown - but primarily a lightish-deepish yellow cal/mag is present in the ingrediants of the bat guana, bone marrow etc. Since its organic many say you can't over do it - but I think you can. Less is more if your doing the right things. I'm growing in soil and started from seed.

mikeandnaomi said:

You obviously know what your saying - I'm using Earth Juice "Bloom" - held off on any more molasses (was turning lower fans a yellowish brown - but primarily a lightish-deepish yellow cal/mag is present in the ingrediants of the bat guana, bone marrow etc. Since its organic many say you can't over do it - but I think you can. Less is more if your doing the right things. I'm growing in soil and started from seed.

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Thanks buddy. less is sometimes more for sure. unless its properly cooled lights! hahah

Doesn't fan leaf color usually start to go a little yellowish towards the end naturally? as the nitrogen runs out in it's medium. I don't know how much it has to with the molasses. That Aids the roots uptake of nutrients, I don't think the plan't really drinks it up, I think its more like food for micro-organisms that then help the roots in nutrient uptake? I might be wrong, thats just what I thought.

Towards the end of lfowering the plant actually will start to "eat" its fan leaves away, because It is telling the plant to BUd bud bud, and diverts all energy away from the fan leaves and to the bud site. It knows its about to die, and is trying to "huddle" in on itself and survive.

ganjagoddess said:

Towards the end of lfowering the plant actually will start to "eat" its fan leaves away, because It is telling the plant to BUd bud bud, and diverts all energy away from the fan leaves and to the bud site. It knows its about to die, and is trying to "huddle" in on itself and survive.

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Yes, exactly! The fact that you are seeing this yellowing and other discoloration of your larger leaves is a natural process, and it means your buds are getting all the energy in the plant. It's whole point at this stage in life is to produce the next generation, which would be in the buds had you seeded them. Since you didnt pollinate, it just means that the buds are nearing the end, and fattening up, taking all that is left from the more unnecessary parts of the plant to protect seeds that (hopefully) aren't there.

Personally, I wan't some seeds, but that will be at the end of summer, not gonna try to let a male bust open in my grow-room! lol!

I enjoy reading all of the other fellow grower's insight. The things that i have to add is that i've grown an indica strain before without giving any nutrients during flowering and the buds were dense and thick, whereas on another indica strain i gave nutrients to during flowering and the buds both seemed equal in size. Now don't misunderstand me,nutrients are good but only ifeel when the plant needs them. Simply i feel it's all in the plant's genetics.

from my experience, the genetics are definitely the most important factor in getting good buds. I'd say it is 70% or 80% genetics, and then 20% or 30% how you do. I mean, the quality is usually in the genes, as is yeild. However it is easier as a grower to do something wrong and get a low yeild (not vegging long enough for your variety to produce alot), but your buds will probably be of a good quality if your genetics are. That being said, by using the correct nutes, you can pack a little bit more on. It's not like you are gonna make a Haze look like its a Big Bud, but if you are fertilizing properly, it will make a difference. I once left several outdoor plants completely unfertilized, while I fertilized the rest of them. The ones without fertilizer were still doing just fine, I mean there are natural fertilizers outside that I can't control, but the ones I had watered occasionally with different nutes at different stages of their lives were bigger and had more buds on them. I should state that It was difficult to discern if there was a major improvement of quality. The fertilized ones MIGHT have been a little better, but it wasn't by much. Main difference was the size of the plant, and the yeild you will get. I have never tried the "late stage" type stuff you are talking about. I Imagine they consist of mag/cal and some kind of sugar booster. I got some indoor bio nutes from techniflora for my first indoor grow. When I get to that stage, I might leave one plant "unfertilized" with the bud-building, use it 2 weeks before you harvest type stuff, just to see what the difference would be.