Rdwc nutrients

ҖҗlegilizeitҗҖ

Well-Known Member
A couple of points.

RO systems dont change your water hardness. Thats because they dont filter out calcium or magnesium very well at all. Water hardness is just a measure of how much dissolved calcium and magnesium is in the water. So using RO doesnt have much if any effect on whether you need to add calmag or not.



To reduce hardness, you need a softener or deionizer. The problem there is softeners add tons of sodium to the water - which your plants wont like.

As far as adding cal mag or not in hydro, I have been doing that for ever - but - I judge how much based on how the plants look. Purple stems means you need more. Nice green stems mean you dont.

As far as nutes and additives - avoid anything derived from plants or animals. Use pure salts only.
A lot of quality RO systems also include a Deionizer, mine is a 6 stage system.
Pre filter, 2 carbon filters, RO filter, and 2 DI filters. Only cost me $145
 

Larry3215

Well-Known Member
A lot of quality RO systems also include a Deionizer, mine is a 6 stage system.
Pre filter, 2 carbon filters, RO filter, and 2 DI filters. Only cost me $145
Wow. Thats an insanely low price for all that.

I would want to know what the tech is in the DI filters though.

If you are curious about your water hardness, you can get a very very rough idea easily. Just put a small amount in a container with a dark bottom and let it evaporate. if you see water stains, your water still hard to some degree. You wont know how much, but its a rough idea.

I personally like haveing moderately hard water. That hardness will automatically cause your water pH to increase after you pH down. How fast it goes up will depend on how hard it is, how concentrated your nutes are, and how much you aerate the solution.

I take advantage of the pH rise by pHing down to 5.5 or so, then letting the solution rise to 6.0 or 6.1 max, then pH it back down. This allows your plants to get the max benefit from different pH levels as far as absorbing different nutes.

hydroponics-ph-chart-marijuana.jpg
 

ҖҗlegilizeitҗҖ

Well-Known Member
Wow. Thats an insanely low price for all that.

I would want to know what the tech is in the DI filters though.

If you are curious about your water hardness, you can get a very very rough idea easily. Just put a small amount in a container with a dark bottom and let it evaporate. if you see water stains, your water still hard to some degree. You wont know how much, but its a rough idea.

I personally like haveing moderately hard water. That hardness will automatically cause your water pH to increase after you pH down. How fast it goes up will depend on how hard it is, how concentrated your nutes are, and how much you aerate the solution.

I take advantage of the pH rise by pHing down to 5.5 or so, then letting the solution rise to 6.0 or 6.1 max, then pH it back down. This allows your plants to get the max benefit from different pH levels as far as absorbing different nutes.

View attachment 4791747
Here is the link for my system

Seems to work great, goes in at 255 TDS and measures 2 TDS on the way out.

No worries for me on keeping any hardness or PH buffers, I use Cultured Solutions and its designed for ro water. I add my nutes and it lands at 5.7 with no adjustment.
Then I let it naturally rise to 5.9 or 6, then my PH doser takes over from there. It holds it at a perfect PH, so I don't really "drift".
A lot of science shows that plants actually will preform better under a static PH rather than drift.

I start at 6.1 early veg,, then by the end of flower im setting the doser at 5.7
 

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
RO systems dont change your water hardness. Thats because they dont filter out calcium or magnesium very well at all. Water hardness is just a measure of how much dissolved calcium and magnesium is in the water. So using RO doesnt have much if any effect on whether you need to add calmag or not.
Who the hell told you that? There is barely traces of anything left in RO water and sure as hell no Ca or Mg to speak of. Not enough for plants to use. A deionizer is not needed unless you plan to use the water for sensitive scientific experiments. That's why you get the mineral filter to add those and a couple others back and raise the pH for drinking water.

I just spent over $500 getting all the goodies to build my own RO system. As the source water comes from a dugout on my property I needed to use better filtration and a UV sterilizer to get potable water for drinking. A cutoff after the RO filter will feed a storage tank in the grow room then another line off after the UV for the coffee maker so it's mineral free then through a calcite filter to add some calcium and give it a final polish for tasty drinking water.

We already filter to 5µ so that water goes thru a 1µ filter then a standard carbon filter then a 0.5µ carbon filter before the RO filter then UV and finally the calcite.

Configuration01.JPG
 

Larry3215

Well-Known Member
Who the hell told you that?
You obviously didnt follow the link I posted ;)

Try Googling something like "Does RO filtration lower water hardness" and see 1,240,000 some odd links. Everyone from the EPA to every (reputable) RO filter maker on the market, scientific studies, university papers, etc etc.

The only way to lower hardness is to use a water softener or de-ionizer - like @ÒÒlegilizeitÒÒ linked to above.

RO filters - by themselves - do not significantly lower hardness. Thats because they DO NOT remove significant amounts of calcium or magnesium - which is what 'hardness' is.

It has nothing to do with particulates - which is all even a .5 micron filter can remove. You have to use chemistry to remove calcium and magnesium - not mechanical filtration. Thats the science behind it.
 

A e o n

Member
You obviously didnt follow the link I posted ;)

Try Googling something like "Does RO filtration lower water hardness" and see 1,240,000 some odd links. Everyone from the EPA to every (reputable) RO filter maker on the market, scientific studies, university papers, etc etc.

The only way to lower hardness is to use a water softener or de-ionizer - like @ÒÒlegilizeitÒÒ linked to above.

RO filters - by themselves - do not significantly lower hardness. Thats because they DO NOT remove significant amounts of calcium or magnesium - which is what 'hardness' is.

It has nothing to do with particulates - which is all even a .5 micron filter can remove. You have to use chemistry to remove calcium and magnesium - not mechanical filtration. Thats the science behind it.
After reading through that regurgitated mumbo jumbo in the link, it only states it has a HARD TIME removing hardness, not that it cant.

Basically you're saying, if my RO water comes out 3 PPM, it actually has more than 3 PPM of calcium and magnesium?

3 second google search yielded:
Does a TDS meter measure hardness?
Total dissolved solids (TDS) refers to a measure of all inorganic solids dissolved in the water. This means that it will measure ions that contribute to water hardness, tike calcium, but also those that do not, like sodium.

RO water is essentially pure, and hard water is far from pure. When it says 3 PPM it means 3 PPM and that is considered soft water according to the chart on page 2:
 

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
You obviously didnt follow the link I posted ;)

Try Googling something like "Does RO filtration lower water hardness" and see 1,240,000 some odd links. Everyone from the EPA to every (reputable) RO filter maker on the market, scientific studies, university papers, etc etc.

The only way to lower hardness is to use a water softener or de-ionizer - like @ÒÒlegilizeitÒÒ linked to above.

RO filters - by themselves - do not significantly lower hardness. Thats because they DO NOT remove significant amounts of calcium or magnesium - which is what 'hardness' is.

It has nothing to do with particulates - which is all even a .5 micron filter can remove. You have to use chemistry to remove calcium and magnesium - not mechanical filtration. Thats the science behind it.
You obviously didn't read any of the links you refer to. The very first few I looked at are totally different than what you are spouting. Hard water will plug up the RO filter faster but it still removes Ca and Mg just fine until that happens. checking the ppm of the output water tells you when it's time for a new filter.

A big part of getting my diploma in environmental chemistry 30 years ago was water quality and treatment so I can understand what's being said in the various reports I researched before buying the gear I need.

I need to get my system going ASAP as the RO I picked up in town is at 68ppm now so I'll be bitching to the manager that it's time for a filter change. Town water is around 350ppm and my dugout water is just a bit higher at 400 and pH 8. Filtering down to 0.5µ is just to remove fine particulates to get longer life out of my RO filter. I have no delusions that it removes mineral salts or ions. The 5µ filter that is what we have for final filtering now still allows a visible sediment to form if you fill a white pail with tap water and allow it to sit for 24 hours. That's what I want to get rid of before it gets to the RO membrane.

A reverse osmosis system physically removes contaminants and dissolved minerals in your water by forcing them through a filter. Some of the benefits of installing a whole-home or point-of-use reverse osmosis system are:

  • Tasteless water – If you find your water has a funny taste, a reverse osmosis system can help by removing the source of the taste.
  • No chemicals – Reverse osmosis systems are more environmentally friendly than other water filtration systems because they don’t use any chemicals.
  • Soft water – Reverse osmosis systems remove the minerals that cause hard water. So if you install a whole-house system, you can benefit from fewer corroded pipes.
  • Removes odors and unusual colors – Some water contaminants and dissolved minerals can cause strange odors and colors in your water. Reverse osmosis systems remove these minerals and pollutants.
 

Larry3215

Well-Known Member
<sigh> I am tempted to let this go, but I will give it one more shot, and then I promise to shut up.

Google "how to lower water hardness" and see how many recommendations for using an RO filter you get from municipal water company's, health departments, EPA, or virtually anyone else.

They pretty much ALL say you have to use some form of chemical process to lower hardness - not RO.

But, if you want to believe your RO filter is somehow magical, thats fine.
 

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
Takes 30 seconds to read up about it and see that you don't have a clue.

RO has no minerals in it and you need lots of minerals in water for it to be hard.

Think whatever you want. I go by the science. I'm done flogging this dead horse myself.
 

A e o n

Member
Sounds good to me.
3 second google search yielded:
Does a TDS meter measure hardness?
Total dissolved solids (TDS) refers to a measure of all inorganic solids dissolved in the water. This means that it will measure ions that contribute to water hardness, tike calcium, but also those that do not, like sodium.

There is no opinion here, if you use PPM/EC to make your nutrient solution than you adhere to the scientific principles which define this quantifiable measurement; An accurate internationally recognized non debatable value called Total dissolved solids (TDS) or PPM . TOTAL! not impartial, or some. Unless you are against the concept of TDS completely, then your argument is self defeating.
 

Stomate

Member
i use RO water too
you better use a nutrient suited for soft water
calmag will imbalance your npk ratio, buy a botte of gh micro soft water and you dont need calmag
I run GH nutes in their grow systems and have for years. Trying to get away from GH in all honesty. They got bought out by Monsanto/Bayer in 2018 and those big companies are poison. The grow systems are disappearing; my local shop can't order them anymore, and Armor Si is not available. I tried to go to Remo nutes but the velo kelp is like 85% organic and slimed my roots bad. Bought a Cyco grow kit and will try to transition out of GH to it. But I can get a good crop with GH nutes in a water grow, and I can run through your grow with you if you like.
I read a few of the comments about cal/mag and I'll tell you that I use it personally and have no complaints. I don't use the 3 part flora series though. I have several bottles because they include them with their power growers, aeroflos and rainforests. I don't use it because it has a lot of carbonates in it. It'll never go bad; that's why it's in a clear bottle! Last for decades in a box so I stay away from it. I love the FloraNova base; a quart bottle will last a long time as it's only 7.5 ml/gal; but up to you.
I run the full line except for their Rapid Start which is a whole bunch of ammonium nitrate your roots really don't need and it's super expensive to boot.
You'll need a PPM meter and drops or a meter for PH. Your RO water will be awesome! My tap water is about 55 PPM and works fine.
As far as I know mycorrhiza isn't applicable in water but I could be wrong. If you stay GH they have liquid kool bloom and a dry kool bloom to boost in week 8. I run both.
I like the GH line but they won't tell you what's in it! Never would and Monsanto sure won't. I think Monsanto might just discontinue the whole company to get rid of competition in the market. In all honesty it might not be the best line to learn if it goes away, but I'd be happy to run through your grow with you.
Honestly I’m not even sure why I went with the flora series... it just sort of happened when I was ordering something else... what’s so bad about the carbonates? Outside of captain solos sabbatical lol

Given this information I suppose I won’t use them again in the future but since I already have them I’m just going to give it a go for my first run...
as for the mycorrhiza- I just happen to watch a video from “inside hydro” on YouTube prior to posting this where he was adding great white and thought maybe that was a thing people generally did ( apparently not).
as for your advice and helping hand... I would love the assistance and really appreciate it
 

Stomate

Member
With GH, they arguably have plenty of cal and mg.
I have seen a lot of people run into issues with the 3 part line, having too much salts? (I'm not sure the exact issue, but its too much)
I've see great results with the Lucas formula though, (with and without calmag added)
Simple is better.
Imo go with equal parts flora micro + flora bloom + uc root and you should have great results.
View attachment 4791558
Thanks for the information man! Appreciate it
 

Stomate

Member
A couple of points.

RO systems dont change your water hardness. Thats because they dont filter out calcium or magnesium very well at all. Water hardness is just a measure of how much dissolved calcium and magnesium is in the water. So using RO doesnt have much if any effect on whether you need to add calmag or not.



To reduce hardness, you need a softener or deionizer. The problem there is softeners add tons of sodium to the water - which your plants wont like.

As far as adding cal mag or not in hydro, I have been doing that for ever - but - I judge how much based on how the plants look. Purple stems means you need more. Nice green stems mean you dont.

As far as nutes and additives - avoid anything derived from plants or animals. Use pure salts only.
So basically just don’t add any until I see specific signs telling me there’s a deficiency?
 

Stomate

Member
A couple of points.

RO systems dont change your water hardness. Thats because they dont filter out calcium or magnesium very well at all. Water hardness is just a measure of how much dissolved calcium and magnesium is in the water. So using RO doesnt have much if any effect on whether you need to add calmag or not.



To reduce hardness, you need a softener or deionizer. The problem there is softeners add tons of sodium to the water - which your plants wont like.

As far as adding cal mag or not in hydro, I have been doing that for ever - but - I judge how much based on how the plants look. Purple stems means you need more. Nice green stems mean you dont.

As far as nutes and additives - avoid anything derived from plants or animals. Use pure salts only.
Also I feel like I read that deionizing is a bad thing to undertake towards hydro? That was a while back though. Can’t recall specifics
 

Stomate

Member
3 second google search yielded:
Does a TDS meter measure hardness?
Total dissolved solids (TDS) refers to a measure of all inorganic solids dissolved in the water. This means that it will measure ions that contribute to water hardness, tike calcium, but also those that do not, like sodium.

There is no opinion here, if you use PPM/EC to make your nutrient solution than you adhere to the scientific principles which define this quantifiable measurement; An accurate internationally recognized non debatable value called Total dissolved solids (TDS) or PPM . TOTAL! not impartial, or some. Unless you are against the concept of TDS completely, then your argument is self defeating.
Hence adding cal-mag back in once run through RO due to extremely low EC/TDS correct?
 

A e o n

Member
Hence adding cal-mag back in once run through RO due to extremely low EC/TDS correct?
That is the reason most people use calmag yes, because HARDNESS HAS BEEN REMOVED BY RO. It gives the plants the calcium and mag they would get from hard water but in a purer more available form administered at a consistent controllable dose.
 

A e o n

Member
So basically just don’t add any until I see specific signs telling me there’s a deficiency?
I shocked myself with a grow of only maxibloom, no clamag, using RO water that produced some decent flower. I normally use jacks A + Calnit + MgSO4 and Si. You may want to try without it or at reduced strength if you run into issues with over feeding. I run calnit at 1.3g/gal and MgSO4 at .5g/gal whereas most say to use 2g and 1g respectively, so the need for calmag may be overexaggerated
 

MustGro

Member
I got one of these magazines in grow shop and it's the best source I've read on PH, heavy metal toxicity; and it explains why carbonates are bad. If you check your labels there are 5 sources of carbonates if you use all 3 bottles. The first 100 pages are all advertising (I don't use Advanced nutes) but after that it's good. Carbonates are on page 125. I'm not saying the Flora 3 part won't work; it's just easier with FloraNova.

I like to run complete lines in hydro. There is no soil to hold anything so if you don't give it, the plant won't get it. Also if you skip nutes you won't line up with the PPMs GH gives in their charts. I use Calimagic every tank. I never wait for a deficiency to show up in my hydro grows. Why take the chance?
 
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