So many choices, please help me decide.

Hi everyone.
I have decided I want to upgrade my light from 400w hps but cant decide what would give the best results for my cash.
My tent is 1m x 1m and 2m high.
I have considered the below but dont know which to choose so would like opinions on which people would consider the best bang for the buck.

1: 2 hans panels 114w £320 (maybe to low powered and not enough coverage for space)

2: plantphotonics 140w panel £400 (looks good but again maybe under powered for space and expensive for low watts)

3: a51 sgs190 £340 (looks very promising but maybe stretching it in a 1m/sq. Would my diy vero out do it with being able to space them better and having double the power and similar spectrum)

4: 360w diy led consisting of 18 x vero 10 (still undecided on what k maybe all 3.5k or 9 4k and 9 3k) run by 2 x hlg-185-c700,(still unsure on heat sink and cooling) £200+ heatsink and mounting costs so id guess around £300

5: 400w induction light (Inda-grow £500)

6: 315w philips cdm bulb and ballast £200

7: 400w philips cmh retro bulb for my hps £50

Sorry for such a long post but hopefully you can see why I am spoilt for choice.
I am really thinking of getting the cmh retro bulb whatever choice I make as for £50 it seems worth trying.
I have put why I think 1 and 2 are not suitable but I could be wrong.

many thanks in advance for the help.
Andy.


Thanks for all the help.
Just to let everyone know that I have decided that I will be going for a diy led. It will most probably consist of 24 vero 10 leds.
I will carry this topic on in picogravs diy thread as it may be of use to other people looking for the same information and there is more chance of it being seen there.
many thanks andy.

Not knowing your budget or how long you've been growing I'm also curious as to what is motivating you to change from a 400 watt HPS? Have you had good success with that lamp? If you were to go with the IG you would want to run the Pro-200 not the 420 for an area that small and it's 1/2 the wattage. I think the Hans panels are also an excellent choice in terms of quality construction, low heat/wattage but I have yet to see any side by sides through conclusion that would indicate how his panels would compare to a comparable wattage IG in terms of weight and quality. If you're on a limited budget and want to expand your HID spectrum into a U-B range than consider a 315 watt CMH. I've never ran the Pro-200 up against one but I know the IG will run cooler and for 5X longer so you should take these things into consideration as well. Hope that helps a little bit.

Hi again everyone,
After more research I think I have decided to definitely get a couple of the cmh retro bulbs to use on my hps ballast as I dont think the 315w will offer much benefit over retro except the 100w electricity saving.
I am fairly sure 2 hans would struggle in 1m2 and I think the plant photonic panel wouldn't do much better for the extra cost.
I think the inda-grow 420 is too wide for my tent and dont think it would offer much over the use of Cmh bulbs.
This now leaves me to decide between an area 51 sgs 190w or a diy panel of approximately 360w of 18 x vero 10 leds running at 700ma.

If anyone has any advice or suggestions please feel free to offer it or even any criticism of my logic.

I will try and finalise a design on my diy but am currently thinking of a layout like these shown below to get a nice even spread of light.

18 vero 10 x=3000k y=4000k
xo----xo----xo

xo----xo----xo

xo----xo----xo

or
16 vero 10 x=3500k
x---x---x---x
x---x---x---x
x---x---x---x
x---x---x---x

I hope you can see what im trying to show above but there would be 3 or 4 frames with the leds mounted on spaced between 8-12 inches apart covering about 3ft x 3ft.
using vero 10 leds I should be able to drive 9 off each hlg-185h-c700 giving around 16-19000 lumens (temperature dependant) at 180w for the 3500k.
Im sorry for rambling on but im just trying to get my whole message across so the more knowledgeable amongst you can guide me or shoot my idea down in flames.
many thanks for your time.
Andy.

Hi chazbolin.
The only reason I am thinking of changing from the hps is to see if anythings better. I like to tinker with things and get a bit obsessive over things and now that I have everything in place, I have decided to occupy myself with upgrading my lighting. I wont just change for the sake of changing though and thats why ive asked for opinions.
Some people might think I am trying to run before I can walk but its just the way I am and just dive into things head first.
Ive already got 6 x 20w cfls for seedlings/ early veg and the 400w hps with a dual spectrum bulb for veg and flowering, next i plan on trying out a 400w cmh retro bulb in place of the dual spec bulb.
After this I will try something else such as area 51, diy led or maybe inda-grow.
I hadn't even considered a ig 200 as I thought it would be underpowered for a 1 square metre area.
Budget is upto around £400 gbp but its not set in stone.
I suppose what I really want to know is if I can get 90% the results of a £500 light with a £50 bulb then I will stick with the £50 bulb.
many thanks andy.

There really isn't anything much better then hps unless you up the wattage.
Other then that,that is the best light to grow with.

I'm using 2 x 11-band 200W diamond series LED panels from advanced grow LEDs. And couldn't be happier. Have you checked em out?
During veg I also add a 75W self ballasted magnetic induction lamp @6500K with great results.
You can see them in my journals.

Sent from my GT-I9500 using Rollitup mobile app

"400w philips cmh retro bulb for my hps £50". I am going to try this sh*t bulb on a 2' x 2' x 6" flood and drain table.

andyhot said:

This now leaves me to decide between an area 51 sgs 190w or a diy panel of approximately 360w of 18 x vero 10 leds running at 700ma.

Click to expand...

While you can run those vero's at 700mA it will be a lot less efficient. Since the vero's are so cheap it would pay itself back to get the double amount and run at 350mA.
Slapping together the vero's would then give you >35% efficiency, compared to 30% for the new a51 panel, at a fraction of the cost.

18 vero 10 x=3000k y=4000k
xo----xo----xo

xo----xo----xo

xo----xo----xo

or
16 vero 10 x=3500k
x---x---x---x
x---x---x---x
x---x---x---x
x---x---x---x

Click to expand...

Yes this looks lovely. I'm going for the second one myself, with 4000K. The x's will probably be shifted a bit on alternating rows to get more even spread.

using vero 10 leds I should be able to drive 9 off each hlg-185h-c700 giving around 16-19000 lumens (temperature dependant) at 180w for the 3500k.

Click to expand...

A word of warning: That thing gives of 285V with sufficient current to be lethal

MrFlux said:

compared to 30% for the new a51 panel

Click to expand...

It's more than 30%. If it were running hotter, 30% would be more accurate. But at lower than 30°C, 30% in an understatement.

Have you owned or used an A51 panel?

Hi everyone
thanks for all the replys.
As soon as advanced tech lighting gets back to me about shipping rates I will order a cmh retro bulb as its got to be worth a try at $36 so about £50 inc shipping to the uk.
I do believe I can build a diy led panel capable of competing with some of the better panels available for around 2/3 the price and I can position them exactly how I feel best.
Mr flux what do you feel is the best way of driving the veros as there doesn't seem many choices due to the higher voltage requirements.
I could power 12 of them at 500ma with a hlg-185h-c500 but think I would need individual drivers to drop down to 350ma so it would be alot more money for a small % difference in efficiency.
many thanks andy.

Hi eraserhead
no sorry I haven't had an area 51 panel.
it is one I am considering and im sure it is very good. It is in my top 3 choices at the moment but due to being in the uk and with the current exchange rates it would cost me around £340 and if it gets stopped at customs 10% import duty + 20% vat + handling fees so about £450 to my door.
This is one of the main reasons im thinking diy as I can get alot of the parts in the uk and usually small parts come through customs with the charges.
Thanks andy.

I was asking Flux if he had used one or not, since he is so knowledgable on them.

The A51s are shipped with lower values on the custom forms, $99 for single units, $49 each for multiple.

I do not have a lot of info about the Vero LED, but the price is good, and I'm pretty sure they are a good alternative to places like Vanq or other Chinese lights, and you get the bonus of DIYing it to your exact needs.

andyhot said:

Hi eraserhead
no sorry I haven't had an area 51 panel.
it is one I am considering and im sure it is very good. It is in my top 3 choices at the moment but due to being in the uk and with the current exchange rates it would cost me around £340 and if it gets stopped at customs 10% import duty + 20% vat + handling fees so about £450 to my door.
This is one of the main reasons im thinking diy as I can get alot of the parts in the uk and usually small parts come through customs with the charges.
Thanks andy.

Click to expand...

Eraserhead said:

It's more than 30%. If it were running hotter, 30% would be more accurate. But at lower than 30°C, 30% in an understatement.

Click to expand...

Okay I would be genuinely interested to know what percentage you have and how you arrived at it. I'm not claiming the greatest accuracy but it can't be that far off.

Have you owned or used an A51 panel?

Click to expand...

I'm a strict DIY-er. I know the emitter it uses and at what drive current it runs, the rest follows.

andyhot said:

Mr flux what do you feel is the best way of driving the veros as there doesn't seem many choices due to the higher voltage requirements.

Click to expand...

I have a bunch of these. They are pretty cheap and about 92% efficient. It's typical Chinese quality though.

big bud 56 said:

There really isn't anything much better then hps unless you up the wattage.
Other then that,that is the best light to grow with.

Click to expand...

not necessarily true. Good LED builds seem to operate at double the efficiency of HID... AS WELL AS 5-10% efficiency gains in power supplies alone.

Mr flux
Those drivers do seem a good price and they should run 4 vero 10 at 350ma so I can up the size of the panel to make a more even spread.
how does this layout look:
x-x-x-x-x
-x-x-x-x-
x-x-X-x-x
-x-x-x-x-
x-x-x-x-x (x= 1x v10, -= case, X= 2x v10)
i would use 6 of those drivers and 24 vero 10 with approx 7" spacing.
I think this should give approx 26000 lumens at 240w using all 3500k vero10.
would you use all the same k or would you mix different ones as I think it would blend well with the close spacing.
What would you suggest for heatsinks and cooling? I was going to use cpu heat sinks and fans but that would be way to many and overkill for the small vero 10s.
Do you think it would be ok to use passive heatsinks inside the case of each row with a fan blowing through each row as each heatsink will only be dissipating around 6w of heat.
Many thanks for all your help and advice.
Andy.

You can use any layout you want. I'll be using 1m alu profile with 4 vero's spaced evenly. A bunch of these profiles hanging parallel and some 12cm PC fans blowing air alongside.
I settled on 4000K based on the old KNNA recommendation for the amount of blue. 3500K would be fine too. 3000K would be lacking in the blue. You can use a mix of whites if you want but it's not necessary.

If you decide to incorporate any Cree lights into your Vero build then I want to give my recommendation to ReefLEDlights.com... his B, RB, and R are binned for our exact needs and he has great prices on the two most reliable drivers- meanwell and inventronics (AKA hyperon).

Hi again everyone.
mr flux thanks for all your help.
I now have a good idea on the direction I want to take with my diy panel.
Do you have any links to help me with my colour/temp/k choice as I wouldnt want to buy 24 of the wrong type, I have searched for knna but only find posts talking about him rather than any information about led colours to use.
There seems so much information about different colours that it can get a little overwhelming and conflicting.
Hi Zylev thanks for the heads up, im hoping to be able to get it right with just the white veros but if I do need to add a couple of coloured leds to tweak the spectrum I will keep them in mind.
many thanks andy.

Thanks for all the help.
Just to let everyone know that I have decided that I will be going for a diy led. It will most probably consist of 24 vero 10 leds.
I will carry this topic on in picogravs diy thread as it may be of use to other people looking for the same information and there is more chance of it being seen there.
Thanks for all your help and hopefully you will continue to help and advise me on my build.
many thanks andy.