What are your guys' opinion on these pre-harvest techniques

diowk

Active Member
Here are two techniques I have heard about and am considering trying out and was wondering what you guys think of them or if you have tried them before with any significant results:
1. stripping the plant of all its leaves 7 days before harvest - supposed to stress the plant and force it to produce a lot of trichomes

2. switching to metal halide for the last 7 days before harvest - Im not completely clear on the theory behind this but to my understanding MH bulbs produce UV rays that HPS does not and this is excellent for trichome production.
 

Brick Top

New Member
Care for a third and better option?

"The Stichting Institute of Medical marijuana (SIMM), the first company to sell marijuana through the pharmacies of Holland, has been investigating the medical possibilities of cannabis, together with TNO laboratories and the University of Leiden. One of their discoveries has been that to keep the ripe plants in the dark before harvesting could increase their potency.

SIMM’s growers separated a crop of mature plants, harvested half of them and kept the other half in absolute darkness for 72 hours before cutting and drying. Analysis of the resulting dried buds showed that some varieties had seen an increase of THC of up to 30%, while CBD and CBN remained the same."
 

darkdestruction420

Well-Known Member
the stripping leaves is a terrible idea, if you have both an hps and a metal halide you should use both of them. bricktop gave you some good info, do option 3.
 

Brick Top

New Member
Here are two techniques I have heard about and am considering trying out and was wondering what you guys think of them or if you have tried them before with any significant results:
1. stripping the plant of all its leaves 7 days before harvest - supposed to stress the plant and force it to produce a lot of trichomes

2. switching to metal halide for the last 7 days before harvest - Im not completely clear on the theory behind this but to my understanding MH bulbs produce UV rays that HPS does not and this is excellent for trichome production.

I will keep this short.

If you strip your plants of their leaves then how will they take in enough light rays to use for energy so they can then create all the new trichomes that you are expecting?

Plant leaves are where carbohydrates and other elements are within plants that are needed for plant functions. Leaves are also storage for those same elements until they are used by plants.Remove the leaves and where will those elements be created to then be used by the plants? If you remove the leaves your storage is then gone and with no new carbohydrates etc. being produced what will the plants tap for food so they can then produce the new trichomes you expect?

Adding a MH will increase UV rays and that equates to increased trichomes but it will also cut yields. Not significantly, but it will lower them, so which is better, less herb that is slightly better or more herb that is slightly lower in quality?
 

diowk

Active Member
since I already got about 2-3 oz off this one plant Im not worried about the yield anymore :) so I think Ill switch to mh, dont have space for both. Ill leave my leaves alone, and that was an awesome tip about leaving them in darkness before harvest! never heard that one yet, thanks bud. +rep
 

mygirls

Medical Marijuana (MOD)
the stripping leaves is a terrible idea, if you have both an hps and a metal halide you should use both of them. bricktop gave you some good info, do option 3.
not all the leaves just the big fan leaves. doing this around 6 weeks into flower will increess bud size
 

diowk

Active Member
I will keep this short.

If you strip your plants of their leaves then how will they take in enough light rays to use for energy so they can then create all the new trichomes that you are expecting?

Plant leaves are where carbohydrates and other elements are within plants that are needed for plant functions. Leaves are also storage for those same elements until they are used by plants.Remove the leaves and where will those elements be created to then be used by the plants? If you remove the leaves your storage is then gone and with no new carbohydrates etc. being produced what will the plants tap for food so they can then produce the new trichomes you expect?

Adding a MH will increase UV rays and that equates to increased trichomes but it will also cut yields. Not significantly, but it will lower them, so which is better, less herb that is slightly better or more herb that is slightly lower in quality?
"expect, expect, expect..." Let me clear something up right quick. Im not dumb enough to hear some radical theory such as this and "EXPECT" it to work. I wouldnt "expect" a bunch of new trichomes all of a sudden, I would expect some sort of result to keep in mind in the future whether it be positive/negative. Also, I realize the function of the leaves are to absorb light that the plant needs in order to produce food for the plant through photosynthesis. The important factor to keep in mind is that Im talking about the last week of flowering where the plant is getting absolutely ZERO nutrients anyways. Its in hydro, not soil. The plant has been sucking up nothing but plain water for 5 days, Im not concerned about starving the plant at this point... That was an awesome tip about leaving them in darkness before harvest though man. I never heard of that before. Cheers!
 

Big P

Well-Known Member
Care for a third and better option?

"The Stichting Institute of Medical marijuana (SIMM), the first company to sell marijuana through the pharmacies of Holland, has been investigating the medical possibilities of cannabis, together with TNO laboratories and the University of Leiden. One of their discoveries has been that to keep the ripe plants in the dark before harvesting could increase their potency.

SIMM’s growers separated a crop of mature plants, harvested half of them and kept the other half in absolute darkness for 72 hours before cutting and drying. Analysis of the resulting dried buds showed that some varieties had seen an increase of THC of up to 30%, while CBD and CBN remained the same."


sup brick top,

about above test the guy did, wouldnt the test have been more accurate if he didnt chop the control group first before he let the other batch go the 72 hours longer?

cuz who could say the other plant didnt have more trich coverage because it lived 72 hours longer regardless of if it was in darkness the whole time

maybe if they had left the control group alive the 72 hours also, in the light, it would of had even more trics possibly we will never know


anyway not trying to hate on your studay just pointing out its flawed in a way

i wish it wasnt flawed tho cuz ive been wanting to hear about a side by side expiriment about this theory to finally put it to the test
 

woodsmaneh!

Well-Known Member
I have been harvesting my crops at the end of full darkness for years now. About a month ago I read the same info so gave it a try. Now this is not very scientific but I would say after 36 hours the res count is up. How do I know, when trimming 20 plants I stop and peel the finger hash off. After 36 hours of dark after 13 plants I noticed the buildup was moving over my finger tips and piling up on my nails. I'm sold, next will be 48 hours. Grasshopper keep an open mind.

Peace
 

Brick Top

New Member
not all the leaves just the big fan leaves. doing this around 6 weeks into flower will increess bud size
Fan leaves are a plant's largest most efficient solar collectors and also 'manufacturing plants and storage facilities' for carbohydrates and other elements essential to plants.

Removing them and expecting the result to be a gain rather than a loss is like owning an entirely solar powered home and removing most of your solar panels and expecting to see an increase in energy to rely on.

The belief in removing fan leaves is based in flawed logic and not in fact. People look at a plant and believe the plant has 'X' amount of energy to use. They say, hey, if I cut off some of what I won't smoke the buds will receive more energy for bud growth that otherwise would have gone to maintaining fan leaves.

That is not how it works though. When you remove fan leaves the former total amount of energy, 'X', is now 'P', it has been reduced, not increased, there is less, not more because you removed the plant's most efficient solar collectors of energy and factories for manufacturing carbohydrates and other needed elements and both are needed for good continued bud growth so there cannot be an increase of energy for growth. It is impossible to increase amounts of energy by reducing a plant's ability to collect light rays used to create energy. You just cannot do it.

Also plants allocate available energy as the plant dictates, not according to what a grower wants or hopes for. Plants perform many functions and each needs energy, along with needed foods etc., to perform each task. No matter what someone does to their plants the plants will attempt to continue to do as they are genetically coded to do, and that of course includes energy allocation.
 

Tagh

Active Member
Fan leaves are a plant's largest most efficient solar collectors and also 'manufacturing plants and storage facilities' for carbohydrates and other elements essential to plants.

Removing them and expecting the result to be a gain rather than a loss is like owning an entirely solar powered home and removing most of your solar panels and expecting to see an increase in energy to rely on.

The belief in removing fan leaves is based in flawed logic and not in fact. People look at a plant and believe the plant has 'X' amount of energy to use. They say, hey, if I cut off some of what I won't smoke the buds will receive more energy for bud growth that otherwise would have gone to maintaining fan leaves.

That is not how it works though. When you remove fan leaves the former total amount of energy, 'X', is now 'P', it has been reduced, not increased, there is less, not more because you removed the plant's most efficient solar collectors of energy and factories for manufacturing carbohydrates and other needed elements and both are needed for good continued bud growth so there cannot be an increase of energy for growth. It is impossible to increase amounts of energy by reducing a plant's ability to collect light rays used to create energy. You just cannot do it.

Also plants allocate available energy as the plant dictates, not according to what a grower wants or hopes for. Plants perform many functions and each needs energy, along with needed foods etc., to perform each task. No matter what someone does to their plants the plants will attempt to continue to do as they are genetically coded to do, and that of course includes energy allocation.
What about Big P, Brick Top :P
 

Brick Top

New Member
I had thought about that myself but I did have to give The Stichting Institute of Medical Marijuana and TNO Laboratories and the University of Leiden the benefit of the doubt on that one given their credentials and also since they know vastly more about marijuana plants than anyone like you or I ever will.

Also just to clear things up a bit, you said; "about above test the guy did," "the other plant," "ive been wanting to hear about a side by side expiriment about this theory to finally put it to the test,"

For one it was not a test, it was a scientific study just as you have hoped to find and it was not performed by some "guy" and it was not just done with two plants, one harvested and the other allowed to live another 72-hours in darkness.

I believe what had us both bothered a bit, but I got beyond, was how the study was performed but when you think about it at the very least some portion, a large enough sized one to be accurately representative, would have to have been harvested. That would be the only way to have a baseline to compare to because lacking that how do you gauge any possible increase by?

If it had been a study of final levels of THC then both halves of the crop should have been allowed to grow for the same length of time, but that was not what was being researched.

I would like to have a chance to read the entire study and see how everything was done because that could help to make better sense of things. For one just knowing the strains would be good and knowing at what trichome color or other way to decide what day to harvest half the crop and to then put the rest into total darkness for 72-hours was would be good to know.

The very short piece only very vaguely tells the very least of the actual complete process and basically focuses on the findings and that can lead to people wondering and asking questions. Given the credentials of all those involved was why I gave them the benefit of the doubt.

Now I would have preferred there be a crop a third larger in size and one third of it harvested and another third allowed to grow another 72-hours and then harvested and the other third put into total darkness for 72-hours and then harvested and used the first harvested as the baseline and then compare the others to it. The results may have been something like a 10% or 16% increase in the third that continued to grow under normal conditions and the same results for the third that received 72-hours of total darkness. To me that would have been more telling.

Where that could get to be more complicated is harvested marijuana does not instantly stop all functions. If you have ever closely examined trichomes on dried and cured buds you should have noticed some advancement, some additional clouding or darkening. Some is simply due to the drying and curing process where elements change and the no-psychoactive THC become psychoactive and other cannabinoids also change, but some is caused for other reasons. Someone would have to factor in the normal percentages of change, taking into consideration the additional 72-hours of life, because if allowed to mature too long some THC would oxidize and become CBN and there would be a decrease in THC levels.

One thing about the findings that I most liked was regardless of what additional percentage of THC there was there was not an increase of CBD and CBN.

THC (Tetrahydrocannabinol) gets a user high, a higher/larger THC content will produce a stronger high. Without THC you don't get high.

CBD (Cannabidiol) increases some of the effects of THC and decreases other effects of THC. High levels of THC and low levels of CBD contribute to a strong, clear headed, more energetic high.

Cannabis that has a high level of both THC and CBD will produce a strong head-stone that feels almost dreamlike. Cannabis that has low levels of THC and high levels of CBD produces more of a stoned feeling. The mind feels dull and the body feels tired.



CBN (Cannabinol) is produced as THC ages and breaks down, this process is known as oxidization. High levels of CBN tend to make the user feel messed up rather than high.



With that in mind it means that a grower can increase levels of THC without raising levels of CBD and CBN. For anyone other than someone looking for serious couch-lock and that more limp than a wet dishrag, or as limp as a 90's year old man's 'weasel,' feeling in their body it is a great finding.


It's one flaw might be it is not as detailed and as complete of a finding as might otherwise have been able to be found but that still does not negate such a large increase as can in some cases be found.


When you add things, like how THC works like sunscreen in the head of THC producing trichomes protecting the delicate inner workings of the trichomes light rays degrade THC, and how during hours of light less energy is allocated for THC production than is allocated during hours of darkness and that most THC is therefore produced during hours of darkness it only makes sense that plants that finish in darkness will have increased levels of THC over plants that finish in light.



For ages experienced growers have known to harvest before the sun rises if growing outdoors and if growing indoors when their lights went out on the last light cycle before harvest to manually switch them off so they would not come on again before they were able to harvest. Why? Because the THC levels will be the highest they can be when grown in that way under those types of conditions, as in a normal 12/12 light cycle if indoors or whatever the length of day/night that time of year in a growers location if growing outdoors.


It had not been scientifically proven when it was first discovered and instead was a stumbled across finding by some, but scientific or not skilled growers knew their final results were better. Later scientific findings explained why the final results were better, but even lacking knowing why, skilled growers still knew.



When you add all that up, and I mean all of it, it all points to the findings of the scientific research making complete sense, being completely logical and while there is some question as to how much higher THC levels may have been in a test group if it had been allowed to live under normal light cycles for an additional 72-hours in relation to both a baseline-test-group that was harvested and the portion of crop in total darkness for 72-hours it is unquestionable that most THC is created during hours of darkness and that plants that finish in darkness have higher levels of THC than plants that finish in light.



Now after I took a moment to pause and ponder I had to chuckle a bit. A true, though possibly not perfectly thought out, scientific research study was performed by highly qualified groups and people prefer to disbelieve it but virtually every single time I go to a herb growing site like this I see the most absurd totally inaccurate absolutely insane things being pawned off as being facts and good advice and people suck it up faster than cocaine through a $100 bill and never think to question it, ask if it has been scientifically proven or if it is just a belief and they just say thanks a heap for the info and follow it without without question or thought.

I happen to find that rather amusing.
 

Brick Top

New Member
they are called water leaves not solar leaves

What something is called and what functions something performs can be two totally different things.

Here is a small amount of information about plant leafs and their functions. Kindly pay attention to the portions that are BOLD, RED and UNDERLINED.
LEAVES




The blade of a leaf is the expanded, thin structure on either side of the midrib. The blade is usually the largest and most conspicuous part of a leaf. The petiole is the stalk which supports the leaf blade. It varies in length and may be lacking entirely in some cases where the leaf blade is described as sessile or stalkless.​
The principal function of leaves is to absorb sunlight for the manufacturing of plant sugars in a process called photosynthesis. Leaves develop as a flattened surface in order to present a large area for efficient absorption of light energy. The leaf is supported away from the stem by a stem-like appendage called a petiole. The base of the petiole is attached to the stem at the node. The small angle formed between the petiole and the stem is called the leaf axil. An active or dormant bud or cluster of buds is usually located in the axil.​
The leaf blade is composed of several layers. On the top and bottom is a layer of thickened, tough cells called the epidermis. The primary function of the epidermis is protection of leaf tissue. The way in which the cells in the epidermis are arranged determines the texture of the leaf surface. Some leaves have hairs that are an extension of certain cells of the epidermis. The African violet has so many hairs that the leaf feels like velvet.​
Part of the epidermis is the cuticle, which is composed of a waxy substance called cutin that protects the leaf from dehydration and prevents penetration of some diseases. The amount of cutin is a direct response to sunlight, increasing with increasing light intensity. For this reason, plants grown in the shade should be moved into full sunlight gradually, over a period of a few weeks, to allow the cutin layer to increase and to protect the leaves from the shock of rapid water loss or sun scald. The waxy cutin also repels water and can shed pesticides if spreader-sticker agents or soaps are not used. This is the reason many pesticide manufacturers include some sort of spray additive to adhere to or penetrate the cuticle.​
Some epidermal cells are capable of opening and closing. These cells guard the interior of the leaf and regulate the passage of water, oxygen, and carbon dioxide through the leaf. These regulatory cells are called guard cells. They protect openings in the leaf surface called stoma. The opening and closing of the cells are determined by the weather. Conditions that would cause large water losses from plants (high temperature, low humidity) stimulate guard cells to close. Mild weather conditions leave guard cells in an open condition. Guard cells will close in the absence of light. A large percentage of stomata occur in the lower epidermis.​
The middle layer of the leaf is the mesophyll and is located between the upper and lower epidermis. This is the layer in which photosynthesis occurs. The mesophyll is divided into a dense upper layer, called the palisade layer, and a spongy lower layer that contains a great deal of air space, called the spongy mesophyll. The cells in these two layers contain chloroplasts which are the actual sites of the photosynthetic process.​

Types of Leaves
A number of rather distinct types of leaves occur on plants. Leaves commonly referred to as foliage are the most common and conspicuous, and as previously stated, serve as the manufacturing centers where the photosynthetic activity of the plant occurs. Scale leaves or cataphylls are found on rhizomes and are also the small, leathery, protective leaves which enclose and protect buds. Seed leaves, or cotyledons, are modified leaves which are found on the embryonic plant and commonly serve as storage organs. Spines and tendrils, as found on barberry and pea, are specialized modified leaves which protect the plant or assist in supporting the stems. Storage leaves, as are found in bulbous plants and succulents, serve as food storage organs. Other specialized leaves include bracts, which are often brightly colored. The showy structures on dogwoods and poinsettias are bracts, not petals.
Conifers, (pines, firs, spruce, laurel, etc.) have "needles" as leaves. They normally have waxy cuticles with sunken stomata to help deter desiccation. Also, most have resin canals on either side of the vascular system. The resin is thought to help deter and guard against insect damage.


[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Major Plant Organs and Their Functions[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]1. The Leaf[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The leaf of a plant serves two basic functions: i) photosynthesis, and ii) cellular respiration.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]i) Photosynthesis[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Photosynthesis is a chemical reaction in which plants convert radiant energy (light energy) into chemical energy (food energy or more specifically, glucose).[/FONT]


[FONT=arial, helvetica, sanserif]Leaves[/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, sanserif]Function and structure[/FONT]

The principal function of leaves is to absorb sunlight to manufacture plant sugars through a process called photosynthesis. Leaf surfaces are flattened to present a large area for efficient light absorption. The blade is the expanded thin structure on either side of the midrib and usually is the largest, most conspicuous part of a leaf (Figure 11).
A leaf is held away from its stem by a stem-like appendage called a petiole, and the base of the petiole is attached to the stem at a node. Petioles vary in length or may be lacking entirely, in which case the leaf blade is described as sessile or stalkless.
The node where a petiole meets a stem is called a leaf axil. The axil contains single buds or bud clusters, referred to as axillary buds. They may be either active or dormant; under the right conditions, they will develop into stems or leaves.

A leaf blade is composed of several layers (Figure 12a and Figure 12b: click on images to display larger versions.). On the top and bottom is a layer of thick, tough cells called the epidermis. Its primary function is to protect the other layers of leaf tissue. The arrangement of epidermal cells determines the leaf's surface texture. Some leaves, such as those of African violet, have hairs (pubescence), which are extensions of epidermal cells that make the leaves feel like velvet.
The cuticle is part of the epidermis. It produces a waxy layer called cutin, which protects the leaf from dehydration and disease. The amount of cutin on a leaf increases with increasing light intensity. For this reason, when moving plants from shade into full sunlight, do so gradually over a period of a few weeks. This gradual exposure to sunlight allows the cutin layer to build up and protect the leaves from rapid water loss or sunscald.

The waxy cutin also repels water. For this reason, many pesticides contain a spray additive to help the product adhere to, or penetrate, the cutin layer.
Special epidermal cells called guard cells open and close in response to environmental stimuli, such as changes in weather and light. They regulate the passage of water, oxygen, and carbon dioxide into and out of the leaf through tiny openings called stomata. In most species, the majority of the stomata are located on the underside of leaves.
Conditions that would cause plants to lose a lot of water (high temperature, low humidity) stimulate guard cells to close. In mild weather, they remain open. Guard cells also close in the absence of light.
Located between the upper and lower epidermis is the mesophyll. It is divided into a dense upper layer (palisade mesophyll) and a lower layer that contains lots of air space (spongy mesophyll). Located within the mesophyll cells are chloroplasts, where photosynthesis takes place.



The principal function of leaves is to absorb sunlight for the manufacturing of plant sugars in a process called photosynthesis &[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The leaf of a plant serves two basic functions: i) photosynthesis, and ii) cellular respiration. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Photosynthesis is a chemical reaction in which plants convert radiant energy (light energy) into chemical energy (food energy or more specifically, glucose).


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[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]

Kinda makes ya' wonder why they might be called water leaves rather than solar leaves when you consider the primary function of plant leaves, doesn't it?
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[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]
[/FONT]
 

mygirls

Medical Marijuana (MOD)
agreed but after so many weeks in flower it has absorbed all the energy for budding. now we are fattening up the buds. this metiod i will use all the time... but thats anyway for that.. peace
 

Brick Top

New Member
agreed but after so many weeks in flower it has absorbed all the energy for budding. now we are fattening up the buds. this metiod i will use all the time... but thats anyway for that.. peace

Plants have two different kinds of vessels in their stems to move stuff around, xylem and phloem. Xylem runs from the roots up the stem carrying water and nutrients. Phloem runs both up and down to move sugars hormones, proteins, etc. but mostly sugars. Each part of the plant can be either a sugar source or a sugar sink. Storage will first be localized and later when more storage locations/space is needed other areas of the plant are then used.

Phloem moves from sources (areas of supply) to sinks (areas of metabolism or storage). Flowers can produce some photosynthate, but they are no where near as effective as fan leaves (resin glands significantly reduce light to the tissue they are found on).

Flowers are sink tissues, leaves are source tissues. Sinks do not produce enough photosynthate, and are importers. Sources give photosynthate to sinks in closest proximity. Upper leaves bring sucrose to shoot apical meristem and young leaves while lower leaves bring goodies to roots.

Remove the source and the sink will be affected.
There will be changes in the concentration of and movement of ions in and out of the cells resulting in a reduction in the redistribution of PIN Proteins, transmembrane proteins, altering the creation and balance of hydrophobic amino acids. PIN proteins are the rate limiting factors of auxin (hormone) transport and provide vectorial direction of auxin flow. PIN protein localization effects plant growth and development.

The leaves at the top of a plant tend to supply the top growing shoots. The leaves at the bottom of the plant tend to supply the roots. The middle leaves can go either way as the demand changes. During flowering and fruiting, only the very bottom leaves supply the roots and the rest of the leaves try to get as much energy as possible to the flowers of fruits. For this reason, the more leaves are unshaded and in good light, the more chance the plant has of creating extra storage of energy that will ultimately go into yield
.

You said; "but after so many weeks in flower it has absorbed all the energy for budding." That is true, but at what point in time for each genetically different strain is that point reached?

Also, as mentioned above, when you remove a source it effects the sink, the storage area, and access to stored energy does not remain the same and other changes also occur, like hydrophobic amino acids. So how will plants continue to thrive once you remove the source (leaves) and then greatly block the sink (energy storage areas) and other vitally needed elements are no longer available in proper amounts within plants?

Plants are more complex than some people think and things that people do to their plants can have effects that reach far beyond what they imagine they will.

Cannabis is a very easy plant to grow compared to many other plants. It is very tough and resilient and because of that many myths and urban legends grew over the decades. Someone would 'think' something would do something, would work in some certain way, like say removing fan leaves will direct more energy to bud production, and they would try it and they would believe it worked and worked well and was a major success. But it really wasn't, they only believed it was.

In the plant world, as elsewhere, certain things have been proven to be true, to be completely factual, and they are unalterable regardless of how many times someone 'tries something' in their basement or backyard and what they believe their results actually are.
 
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