What has Trump done to this country?

Dryxi

Dryxi

Well-Known Member
TacoMac said:
If that were even remotely true, Trump would not have been able to do so much damage in just 4 years.

Imagine if most of the democrats who impeached him twice and had the experience to minimize the damage were gone?

Pelosi, Biden, Schumer, Schiff and many others would not have been there.

That would have been catastrophic.
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Is that an issue of the power of Congress or us giving too much power to a Presidential position that rotates every 4 years. He should never have had the power to make use of executive orders like he did, same as the Presidents before him who continually expanded their power (/use) of executives orders.

And to imagine Pelosi, Biden, Schumer, Schiff (or the republicans on the other side) would leave politics completely when they leave the position is unlikely. They would have all become consultants in one way or another, or are we to assume they are in it for themselves only and not to support the country as a whole? They do not need experience as if they are downrange in a hostile country making split second decisions that affect lives, they can make a phone call or have a meeting.
 
TacoMac

TacoMac

Well-Known Member
Right. Like anyone listens to Boehner, Clinton or Bush anymore.

You're dreaming. It simply would never work.
 
S

schuylaar

Well-Known Member
TacoMac said:
If that were even remotely true, Trump would not have been able to do so much damage in just 4 years.

Imagine if most of the democrats who impeached him twice and had the experience to minimize the damage were gone?

Pelosi, Biden, Schumer, Schiff and many others would not have been there.

That would have been catastrophic.
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www.project-syndicate.org

The Right Time for Joe Biden | by Ian Buruma - Project Syndicate

Ian Buruma explains why the US president's lack of brilliance, heroism, and charisma may be his greatest strength.
www.project-syndicate.org www.project-syndicate.org
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Dryxi said:
Limiting Congress to 2 or 3 terms = 12-18 years in the seat. That is plenty of time to keep us from radical changes every 6 years. Differences would be in who is running the parties as the lifelong politicians are forced to lose that power. The stalemates in Congress could be interrupted by the old voices being forced out to make room. The parties would still function as they do along partisan lines, but with new personalities.

edit: it would also create more of a progression for politicians moving up the ladder since sitting in either house forever would no longer be an option.
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So, term limits.

I get it, some truly awful people manage to stay in power for 20 or more years and they drag the quality of laws and government down. But, they are elected by people in their districts. Fun fact: Most people hate congress but love their own congressional representation.

I'm FOR democracy, which means that people choose their representatives in Congress, whether I like them or not. Also, I happen to like my guy in the House a lot. Peter DeFazio. He has a clean record, a very good rating on progressive issues and he's been around a long time. Our district is split pretty heavily between knuckle dragging GQP types and Democrats. DeFazio wins by narrow margins -- last time he won by 12,000 votes. But he always wins. The way I see it, term limits are being pushed mostly by GQP and so-called "Progressives" aka Bernie Babies, who can't win against somebody like DeFazio. Those people want to take my choice away and so I oppose them because I'm for Democracy.

Then, there is the issue of an experience gap between lawmakers and lobbyists that would develop over time. Big businesses want term limits because they prefer dealing with inexperienced lawmakers. So, maybe I'd be willing to talk about term limits if we expanded them. 12 year term limits for Congressmen AND term limits for lobbyists, CEOs, lawyers, anybody involved with writing legislation. Make it cumulative too. So, a lawyer who becomes a Congressman and then a lobbyist has to stop when the total time spent in those positions equals 12 years. I might go for that but probably not. It's not as if lack of experience is a good qualification either. Just look at what Trump has done to this country.

So, I get it, I get that there is a swamp to be drained. I get that the leaders in government are old fucks who lag society in terms of POV. I also get that the people who want term limits aren't the people who voted for those old fucks, they are people who want to take choice away from others. If a representative is so bad, then the people in his district will vote him out. That's what I'm for. I'm for Democracy.
 
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Dryxi

Dryxi

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
So, term limits.

I get it, some truly awful people manage to stay in power for 20 or more years and they drag the quality of laws and government down. But, they are elected by people in their districts. Fun fact: Most people hate congress but love their own congressional representation.

I'm FOR democracy, which means that people choose their representatives in Congress, whether I like them or not. Also, I happen to like my guy in the House a lot. Peter DeFazio. He has a clean record, a very good rating on progressive issues and he's been around a long time. Our district is split pretty heavily between knuckle dragging GQP types and Democrats. DeFazio wins by narrow margins -- last time he won by 12,000 votes. But he always wins. The way I see it, term limits are being pushed mostly by GQP and so-called "Progressives" aka Bernie Babies, who can't win against somebody like DeFazio. Those people want to take my choice away and so I oppose them because I'm for Democracy.

Then, there is the issue of an experience gap between lawmakers and lobbyists that would develop over time. Big businesses want term limits because they prefer dealing with inexperienced lawmakers. So, maybe I'd be willing to talk about term limits if we expanded them. 12 year term limits for Congressmen AND term limits for lobbyists, CEOs, lawyers, anybody involved with writing legislation. Make it cumulative too. So, a lawyer who becomes a Congressman and then a lobbyist has to stop when the total time spent in those positions equals 12 years. I might go for that but probably not. It's not as if lack of experience is a good qualification either. Just look at what Trump has done to this country.

So, I get it, I get that there is a swamp to be drained. I get that the leaders in government are old fucks who lag society in terms of POV. I also get that the people who want term limits aren't the people who voted for those old fucks, they are people who want to take choice away from others. If a representative is so bad, then the people in his district will vote him out. That's what I'm for. I'm for Democracy.
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No one is taking away a choice so much as forcing a new choice same as we have for President. A three term limit (of a 6 year seat) is 18 years in office. No choices are being removed, generational gaps of perspectives is being limited.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Dryxi said:
No one is taking away a choice so much as forcing a new choice same as we have for President. A three term limit (of a 6 year seat) is 18 years in office. No choices are being removed, generational gaps of perspectives is being limited.
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I want Peter DeFazio to stay on as my Representative in the House, I want Ron Wyden to stay on in the Senate and you are saying I can no longer have that choice.

So, yeah, you are trying to take my choice away. Let the people of each district decide who they want. That is democracy. Keep your hands off my vote.
 
CunningCanuk

CunningCanuk

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
I want Peter DeFazio to stay on as my Representative in the House, I want Ron Wyden to stay on in the Senate and you are saying I can no longer have that choice.

So, yeah, you are trying to take my choice away. Let the people of each district decide who they want. That is democracy. Keep your hands off my vote.
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Good post.

Term limits sound like a good way to stay current with policy and reduce corruption, but I don’t think they do. As you correctly said, the people should decide what policy is important to them and wether or not they are worried about their representatives being in office too long.

It would be a truer democracy if no term limits existed for President as well. For all of FDR’s faults, it could have been a global tragedy had the wrong person been elected president in 1940.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
CunningCanuk said:
Good post.

Term limits sound like a good way to stay current with policy and reduce corruption, but I don’t think they do. As you correctly said, the people should decide what policy is important to them and wether or not they are worried about their representatives being in office too long.

It would be a truer democracy if no term limits existed for President as well. For all of FDR’s faults, it could have been a global tragedy had the wrong person been elected president in 1940.
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Given the concentration of power vested in one person, I'm all for presidential term limits. 8 years us enough and in Trump's case, shows us that maybe less is better.
 
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DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
Given the concentration of power vested in one person, I'm all for presidential term limits. 8 years might be too long. Maybe 4 is better.
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Tinkering with the system will do little good, it's the character and intentions of the politicians who are responding to the character and intentions of their voters, this becomes apparent in the policies they promote and the issues they address. A republic is no better than a constitutional democracy, the form is irrelevant, intentions are everything and are reflected in policy and law. You don't need to upgrade the system as much as upgrade the voters, or at least enough of them, 33% of every country or culture are arseholes. It works like that in big companies too, a third over perform, a third are average and a third underperform and cause the HR department the most pain.
 
CunningCanuk

CunningCanuk

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
Given the concentration of power vested in one person, I'm all for presidential term limits. 8 years us enough and in Trump's case, shows us that maybe less is better.
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Understandably trump has you unnerved but I think you’re being inconsistent here.

I would also argue the presidency has the least concentration of power than any other democratic political system. At least one that I can think of.

A parliamentary system with a majority government, now that’s power. Power to legislate, declare war and have complete control over the justice system. A Prime Minister under a majority government is essentially a king until the next election.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
CunningCanuk said:
Understandably trump has you unnerved but I think you’re being inconsistent here.

I would also argue the presidency has the least concentration of power than any other democratic political system. At least one that I can think of.

A parliamentary system with a majority government, now that’s power. Power to legislate, declare war and have complete control over the justice system. A Prime Minister under a majority government is essentially a king until the next election.
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Agree that the US has a different system than Canada does. Both systems depend on people in power following the laws of the land. That's where the US got off track. I agree that your parliamentary system looks pretty good right now. But I'm not moving to Canada and now is not the time to open up to changes in our Constitution. So we can debate whether or not term limits are appropriate to the US presidency. There are good arguments on both sides.
 
printer

printer

Well-Known Member
The Prime Minister does have more power than the President. The reason it works is because people in Canada have more trust in their government and the legislatures know that they are put in place for all Canadians, not just the ones that voted for them. Canada was not formed out of conflict and its citizens have not been on guard against their government with the idea that one day they may have to rise up against their government. (Mind you that is what some of the French did in the 70's wanting to separate). One thing that Canada does have is a government does not have a fixed term. If the government really screws up and enough members vote against the government an election has to be called, even if there was one months earlier.
 
jouholpellie

jouholpellie

Member
Seems that the fake news Trump was constantly on about is real. Project Veritas crushing with the outing of CNN fake news facts. How does it feel to have been strung along by the lefts propaganda machine?
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
jouholpellie said:
Seems that the fake news Trump was constantly on about is real. Project Veritas crushing with the outing of CNN fake news facts. How does it feel to have been strung along by the lefts propaganda machine?
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Perhaps you should post the link and promote the story more?
 
hanimmal

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
jouholpellie said:
Seems that the fake news Trump was constantly on about is real. Project Veritas crushing with the outing of CNN fake news facts. How does it feel to have been strung along by the lefts propaganda machine?
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You have to be truly a kool aid drinker if you believe this obvious troll.

Trump said anything and everything like all conmen/liars tend to do.

jouholpellie said:
This should help...
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printer

printer

Well-Known Member
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