DIY Icebox setup advice

B

birdsfoot

Active Member
With winter coming to a close in a few month I need to start thinking about a water cooling. First a little back ground on my setup.


3x3x6ft tent,
600w HPS /w dimmable digital ballast,
Sealed air cooled hood,
6inch inline fan,


Ok, that should be enough info if you need anymore let me know. During the winter here in the midwest my temps stay PERFECT with this current setup. During the summer I want to water cool and I'm loving the idea of the IceBox setup. http://www.hydroinnovations.com/product-details.php?title=ICE_BOX_Water-Cooled_Heat_Exchanger&pro=10 for those of you who don't know what it is. Now money isn't a huge issue but enough that I can't afford a commercial water chiller so I want to go the DIY path. I have two setups in mind and would like feed back on design and efficiency between the two.


Here is a crude schematic:rhUUd.jpg

I like the simplicity of setup 1 but have doubts on its efficiency in cooling the whole reservoir as oppose to just cooling the water in the line like in setup 2.

Looking forward for feedback. Thx in advance.
 
legallyflying

legallyflying

Well-Known Member
Ok buddy here is the deal on the ice box. And please don't be put off by my sometimes brash or condescending tone. .. This ice box is a compete waste of fucking money. Seriously. They are one of the dumbest grow room related things I have every seen in a hydro store. The one owner was actually kind of embarrased he had one in there.

So your bulb creates heat... and you can get rid of MOST of this heat by simply blowing it outside the hood (with your 6" fan). This is actually a pretty damn efficient way to get rid of the heat. The bigger the fan and the cooler the inlet air, the more the overall temperature of the room is decreased (because the heat radiating from your glass and hood is reduced).

The other source of heat in your grow room is the objects sitting under the lights absorbing and radiating heat (your plants) you can't do much about that though. So what does the magic ice box do? It cools this air a little bit more.. but at what expense? Expensive coils, lots of water hoses running to and from your hoods not to mention all of the crap to chill the water in the lines.

If you look around at the people that have pretty legitimate growing set ups... not tiny cabinents or tents I'm talking 4K watt andf up set-ups... NONE of them are using a chill box.

But anywho... to answer your question, Figure 2 represents the best scenario of the two you presented. I should caution you however, that 1. using air to draw heat from water is very in-efficient and you will likely need a metric fuckload of tubing in your mini-fridge to cool the water in your lines. 2. refridgerator compressors are not designed to run continuously like AC or dehumidfier compressors and thus, you will likely burn it out in a couple months.

IF you indeed want to the best way to chill the water in the lines.. or in a hydro setup. I would take the coil in figure 2, put it in a res filled with water, and then chill the water in the rez with the cooling radiator of a cheap dehumidifier. That way you are taking advantage of phase change cooling (the most efficient) as well as using water to absorb heat from your tubing instead of air.. also more effective.

This is all kind of moot though as your going to take all the money that would have WASTED on a ice box and buy a nice big wall unit aircon on CL.
 
B

birdsfoot

Active Member
The problem I have is I don't have a "room" I do have a tiny tent. I'm already venting the heat out of the tent through my fan and right now in the winter it's perfect. When summer rolls around though I'll have an issue cooling it and a window A/C unit isn't and option. What are my options?
 
legallyflying

legallyflying

Well-Known Member
Why isn't a window AC an option? Just use a portable AC unit or build a little plywood stand next to your tent and mount the AC.

Or.. better yet, just don't flower a crop during the hot months of the summer. I spend about $500 to cool my room in June, july and august; seriously thinking about jsut skipping summer growing
 
Icannabis

Icannabis

Well-Known Member
You could just use a cooler light...and the a/c is the best option for hid...but you might have to give up a little yield to get rid of all these heat issues...led and fluorescents and induction fluorescent are all options
 
phillipchristian

phillipchristian

New Member
I disagree with Legally. Sorry dude but i've been tinkering with water cooled systems for a long time and I run 11,000w on an entirely water cooled system. It's not for everyone but it is hella efficient. If you are doing 1 or 2 lights maybe not, but for bigger grows in hot areas it really works. And the Ice Box is a great addition if you already have the chiller setup. Building a chiller setup or buying one just to do one or 2 Ice Box's is definitely not worth it though. But if you want to throw down a little cash for a 1hp chiller (maybe $1200) and cool 2 1000w lights, your nutrient reservoir, your Co2 burner, etc., it's worth it. Water is much more effective at absorbing heat than air. In my case we started with it because we needed to have a 100% sealed grow room (not even exhaust our hoods outside). Did a thread on it.

https://www.rollitup.org/grow-room-design-setup/511767-water-cooled-grow-rooms.html
 
scroglodyte

scroglodyte

Well-Known Member
legallyflying said:
Ok buddy here is the deal on the ice box. And please don't be put off by my sometimes brash or condescending tone. .. This ice box is a compete waste of fucking money. Seriously. They are one of the dumbest grow room related things I have every seen in a hydro store. The one owner was actually kind of embarrased he had one in there.

So your bulb creates heat... and you can get rid of MOST of this heat by simply blowing it outside the hood (with your 6" fan). This is actually a pretty damn efficient way to get rid of the heat. The bigger the fan and the cooler the inlet air, the more the overall temperature of the room is decreased (because the heat radiating from your glass and hood is reduced).

The other source of heat in your grow room is the objects sitting under the lights absorbing and radiating heat (your plants) you can't do much about that though. So what does the magic ice box do? It cools this air a little bit more.. but at what expense? Expensive coils, lots of water hoses running to and from your hoods not to mention all of the crap to chill the water in the lines.

If you look around at the people that have pretty legitimate growing set ups... not tiny cabinents or tents I'm talking 4K watt andf up set-ups... NONE of them are using a chill box.

But anywho... to answer your question, Figure 2 represents the best scenario of the two you presented. I should caution you however, that 1. using air to draw heat from water is very in-efficient and you will likely need a metric fuckload of tubing in your mini-fridge to cool the water in your lines. 2. refridgerator compressors are not designed to run continuously like AC or dehumidfier compressors and thus, you will likely burn it out in a couple months.

IF you indeed want to the best way to chill the water in the lines.. or in a hydro setup. I would take the coil in figure 2, put it in a res filled with water, and then chill the water in the rez with the cooling radiator of a cheap dehumidifier. That way you are taking advantage of phase change cooling (the most efficient) as well as using water to absorb heat from your tubing instead of air.. also more effective.

This is all kind of moot though as your going to take all the money that would have WASTED on a ice box and buy a nice big wall unit aircon on CL.
Click to expand...
............................i, for one, am a bit put off by your brashness and condescending tone. ol.....good luck with your endeavor
 
matthebrute

matthebrute

Well-Known Member
put your tent in a room that can be sealed off, get a basic high BTU AC unit for a window in that room and run it, draw your aur from the floor of the room through your light and also have a couple fans pulling air into the tent from the ground (cool air sinks so pulling air from the ground means you will get the coolest possible air into your tent and through your hood.

1 AC unit brand new is like 200 bucks for a nice big unit, a couple of inline fans and some ducting and you should be all set
 
phillipchristian

phillipchristian

New Member
birdsfoot said:
With winter coming to a close in a few month I need to start thinking about a water cooling. First a little back ground on my setup.


3x3x6ft tent,
600w HPS /w dimmable digital ballast,
Sealed air cooled hood,
6inch inline fan,


Ok, that should be enough info if you need anymore let me know. During the winter here in the midwest my temps stay PERFECT with this current setup. During the summer I want to water cool and I'm loving the idea of the IceBox setup. http://www.hydroinnovations.com/product-details.php?title=ICE_BOX_Water-Cooled_Heat_Exchanger&pro=10 for those of you who don't know what it is. Now money isn't a huge issue but enough that I can't afford a commercial water chiller so I want to go the DIY path. I have two setups in mind and would like feed back on design and efficiency between the two.


Here is a crude schematic:View attachment 2044395

I like the simplicity of setup 1 but have doubts on its efficiency in cooling the whole reservoir as oppose to just cooling the water in the line like in setup 2.

Looking forward for feedback. Thx in advance.
Click to expand...
To run this more efficiently you should have a dedicated line from your reservoir that pumps water through your chiller and back to your reservoir. Then use another line and pump to take water from the reservoir and pump it to your Ice Box.
 
legallyflying

legallyflying

Well-Known Member
You just stated that it wasn't worth it for 1-2 lights.... He has one 600. I agree that an AC in the window of the room is going to be the most efficient operation.
 
phillipchristian

phillipchristian

New Member
legallyflying said:
You just stated that it wasn't worth it for 1-2 lights.... He has one 600. I agree that an AC in the window of the room is going to be the most efficient operation.
Click to expand...
I know I just stated that. I was only making a comment on his chiller design. For 1-2 lights it isn't cost effective; especially for 1 600w. If you are into perfection or trying out new ideas and you have the cash then go for it. Or if you like DIY projects then why not. I've seen guys bury cooling coils as well and use the cooler underground temps to cool water. Some people just like to tinker.

And A/C's are no where near as efficient as chillers and water cooled technology. Maybe more cost effective but not half as efficient. With an A/C you are trying to cool air with air; you are passing air over the evaporator. With a chiller you are passing water over the evaporator. Water has a heat capacity many times greater than that of air which means it is able to sustain temperatures and absorb heat more efficiently than air. A chiller used to chill a room will run you approx. 7-10% less in energy consumption as compared to an A/C.
 
legallyflying

legallyflying

Well-Known Member
Not that I really care, but just for the sake of clarity. A water chiller is no where near as efficient for reducing a rooms temperature as an AC is. You are cooling water which IS THEN used to cool the air. Yeah, the chiller itself is more efficient at cooling the water but the water has to travel to your cooling radiators where air has to travel over them to disapate heat. All any water based cooling system does is transfer the cooling power of whatever method your using (ground loop, chiller, phase, evaporative) to cool the water to another location. It is this multiplication of cooling efforts that makes up for the loss of efficiency. Cooling something that will then be used to cool something else.
 
phillipchristian

phillipchristian

New Member
legallyflying said:
Not that I really care, but just for the sake of clarity. A water chiller is no where near as efficient for reducing a rooms temperature as an AC is. You are cooling water which IS THEN used to cool the air. Yeah, the chiller itself is more efficient at cooling the water but the water has to travel to your cooling radiators where air has to travel over them to disapate heat. All any water based cooling system does is transfer the cooling power of whatever method your using (ground loop, chiller, phase, evaporative) to cool the water to another location. It is this multiplication of cooling efforts that makes up for the loss of efficiency. Cooling something that will then be used to cool something else.
Click to expand...
I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinion but you are wrong. I am sure of it.

I chiller will run less than an A/C to chill the same space. Yea you have to buy a little more stuff in the beginning but you will make it up in the long run. My chiller runs about a 1/3rd as much as my A/C did and they aare the same size. Plus with a chiller I am able to transfer the heat out of my equipment by hooking up some tubing. If you have 8,000 watts in your grow room, a Co2 generator, dehumidifiers, etc... you will need a huge A/C. maybe 5 tons. I can cool all of that with a 5 ton chiller that will work a 1/3rd less time. It works less because the water in your reservoir is easier to keep cold than the air in your room.

I have experience with both and we switched over our system to water cooled 2 years ago. My chiller works less. I pull less power. My room is cooler now. I had 13 tons of A/C and replaced it with a 10 ton chiller that does a better job. That's more efficient to me.
 
LT1RX7 Drifter

LT1RX7 Drifter

Active Member
wow 2 pages of post and not one person mentioned running his lights at night, or adding co2 to aid in yeild and a buffer from higher temps, k.i.s.s. people
 
phillipchristian

phillipchristian

New Member
LT1RX7 Drifter said:
wow 2 pages of post and not one person mentioned running his lights at night, or adding co2 to aid in yeild and a buffer from higher temps, k.i.s.s. people
Click to expand...
Almost everyone I know runs their lights at night. Reduces the load on your transformer casue less power is used at night. Les chance of problems on your breaker panel for bedroom grows caus you are using less power at night. We're not talking about that though. Lot of people still have cooling issues even if you run at night. Arizona, Texas, New Mexico, Nevada, etc... And that's only in the U.S.
 
legallyflying

legallyflying

Well-Known Member
you could run a night at the north pole and you would still have to run and AC with 8k watts.

Co2 or not, you better cool that shit down in the last couple weeks or quality will suffer.

At any rate, I guess I am not understanding how you are cooling the AIR with all that water? Don't you have too much radiant heat? I mean your hood could be ice cold but the objects that are under the light are still going to be giving off heat. Like your dehu... how are you getting rid of that heat?

Do you have any pictures of your set up?
 
phillipchristian

phillipchristian

New Member
legallyflying said:
you could run a night at the north pole and you would still have to run and AC with 8k watts.

Co2 or not, you better cool that shit down in the last couple weeks or quality will suffer.

At any rate, I guess I am not understanding how you are cooling the AIR with all that water? Don't you have too much radiant heat? I mean your hood could be ice cold but the objects that are under the light are still going to be giving off heat. Like your dehu... how are you getting rid of that heat?

Do you have any pictures of your set up?
Click to expand...
Sorry dude, but I don't post pics of my room online. Call me paranoid! :o

That's what i'm saying. With water cooling you don't have to cool that stuff, the water does. You can water cool your dehumidifier and it turns it into a 2,000btu A/C. Seriously. You can water cool your Co2 generator; your hoods, you can even water cool your ballasts if they are in the grow room. I can lay my face on the glass of a my 1000w without a problem. (i'll send you a picture of that if you want). That's how efficient it is. I have no radiant heat coming off my hoods whatsoever. So if you are water cooling all of that equipment really you are only going to need a very small A/C to cool your room. So you throw up an Ice Box with a fan as a dedicated A/C and that's plenty. If you have a larger room then you get an air handler instead, won't need any Ice Boxes, and duct the lights to the return on your air handler. If you have 8 lights then an air handler is actually cheaper than all the fans and Ice Boxes; probably cheaper with 6 lights.

I helped my boy set up an 8x10 tent with 2 1000w lights. Bought a 1.5hp chiller with 3 Ice Boxes, water cooled dehumidifier, and a cool coil for his nutrient reservoir. He put 2 Ice Boxes on the hoods and another one on the carbon filter after the exhaust fan. He put that one on a thermostat with a fan speed controller. It literally ran about 50% of the time cause the room was so cool. Where I live it's 95 degrees every day. That tent was 76 degrees all the time. His nutrient reservoir stayed at 68 degrees all the time.

Here's a diagram of our room right now. That's the best I can do for you. If you want I'll send you a pic of any of the equipment to help out but I can't send a pic of the whole room. I'll even send you a video of my face on the glass of a 1000w for 5 minutes to show you that I'm not playing.

Grow Barn.jpg
 
woodsmaneh!

woodsmaneh!

Well-Known Member
This should help explain it.


Why is a chiller more efficient than an air conditioner?
The primary reason for the superior efficiency of a chiller over an air conditioner despite their use of the same internal components is that the thermal conductivity of water is 23 times greater than that of air. What that means is a chiller will exchange the heat in a given space much more quickly than an air conditioner, allowing it to run less to get the same results. This is where you save electricity.
With an air conditioner, air is passed over the evaporator instead of water. Since the air is less conductive, the evaporator can’t draw out as much heat as it can with water. The chiller evaporator is significantly smaller than an air evaporator because of the increased thermal load of water. In nearly all cases the evaporator in a chiller will be significantly more efficient than that of an air conditioner, again allowing it to run less to get the same amount of cooling.
Outdoor chillers used in conjunction with indoor water-cooled air handlers can supply traditional style air conditioning - the difference is that there is water passed between them instead of refrigerant. This type of set-up can be installed by anyone as no refrigeration license would need to be installed. Water lines can run hundreds of feet to a water-cooled evaporator. A/C ducting cannot run for significant lengths as the airflow decreases dramatically with distance. Water is currently used in most large public buildings for heating and cooling, both due to its superior efficiency and because it affords the ability to use one cooling unit for a very large area, whereas several air conditioning units would be required due to the distance constraints involved with ducting.
 
legallyflying

legallyflying

Well-Known Member
Huh. Well I guess you learn something new everyday. I guess I couldn't get passed the fact that there would have to be some kind of radiator to cool the air and this is where the inefficiency would come in. Would be totally awesome to cool a massive grow with 5,000 feet of pex tubing buried under ground!

In other news, did you hear that Plant clones are NOT genetically identical?
 
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