Trump is the iceberg, the Democratic party is the Titanic, and progressives are the lifeboat

Padawanbater2

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
You didn't cite anything where people self-identified as progressives. So, "I don't want my mother to starve". Well yeah. Not wanting one's mother to starve isn't a progressive vs right wing issue. You jump from a pew poll to "everybody is like me".

Nope. Take the facts for what they are. More and more states are voting for right wingers. This does not indicate people are becoming more progressive. And, the Democratic losses in purple states were by small margins. This does not indicate a sea change to the left or to the right. Taken at face value, it indicates a small change to the right in middle America.

Why is this so? Economic stress and anxiety. It's the economy, stupid. And not national economy, local economic conditions that affect people where they live. Trump lied but promised middle America he'd stop those Mexicans from stealing their shit, protect them from those radical Muslim terrorist refugees and millions of jobs. Clinton said "stronger together". You are projecting your wishes onto polls that can be much more easily interpreted as common values than than the contorted idea that the Democratic party is not as progressive as the majority of Americans.

I repeat that I support repealing Citizen's United, free public education through an undergraduate degree, universal health care and most progressive causes. I just don't see the majority going that direction quickly. Slowly, yes but not until the bread and butter issues are honestly dealt with.

And no, the Democratic party is not entirely bought and paid for by the corporations. Bernie Sanders introduced an amendment to repeal Citizens United and every Democrat in the Senate supported it. Republicans voted against it with large enough numbers to stop it. Please explain how that means Wall Street owns the Democratic Party.
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If I asked most midwestern Americans if they support the Affordable Care Act, they would agree. If I asked them if they support 'Obamacare', most would disagree. You are arguing that because most of these people call it 'Obamacare', that means they obviously don't support universal healthcare and they're not progressive.

You should do more reasearch
 
SneekyNinja

SneekyNinja

Well-Known Member
Padawanbater2 said:
If I asked most midwestern Americans if they support the Affordable Care Act, they would agree. If I asked them if they support 'Obamacare', most would disagree. You are arguing that because most of these people call it 'Obamacare', that means they obviously don't support universal healthcare and they're not progressive.

You should do more reasearch
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Do you even give them money for the duct tape?
 
esh dov ets

esh dov ets

Well-Known Member
If most people are asked whether they support health care for all the will say yes; unless they are the type who say no to goverment or taxes doing human work. once you start attaching parties and candidates to it they become squeamish. and once they get to the ballet booth they don't vote in leaps and bounds they vote for scraps and obstacles.
 
Padawanbater2

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
SneekyNinja said:
Do you even give them money for the duct tape?
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You should read that study, you might actually benefit from it

The 'Duct tape' thing you're fruitlessly trying to make stick is the exact same kind of tactics the Clinton campaign attempted to use against Trump instead of populist economic policy rhetoric that we actually know works

You don't win because you don't appeal to voters, just like the duct tape thing fails to land.. People aren't interested in personal attacks because it doesn't do anything for them. You can call Trump the devil till you're blue in the face, it won't change anything other than the number in your bank account trying to get that message out.
 
esh dov ets

esh dov ets

Well-Known Member
Wilderb said:
I would beg to differ. But I appreciate your viewpoint.
Isn't the time to make changes when you hit rock bottom?
EDIT
And.........I think the discussion is a good one to have.
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my post you are responding to was not all i wanted it to be. i don't know what you disagree with.
the time to make changes is way before rock bottom or it's trap doors.
 
esh dov ets

esh dov ets

Well-Known Member
Padawanbater2 said:
You should read that study, you might actually benefit from it

The 'Duct tape' thing you're fruitlessly trying to make stick is the exact same kind of tactics the Clinton campaign attempted to use against Trump instead of populist economic policy rhetoric that we actually know works

You don't win because you don't appeal to voters, just like the duct tape thing fails to land.. People aren't interested in personal attacks because it doesn't do anything for them. You can call Trump the devil till you're blue in the face, it won't change anything other than the number in your bank account trying to get that message out.
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what study? i haven't read every post.
 
Padawanbater2

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
esh dov ets said:
what study? i haven't read every post.
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Macomb County in the Age of Trump: Report from focus groups with independent & Democratic Trump voters in Macomb County

"The path for Democrats to take back Trump voters and win down-ballot runs through the nation’s
working class communities, starting in the formerly industrial states and Upper Midwest."

"A majority of these voters were very open to Democrats like Senators Brown, Sanders
and Warren who oppose trade deals, want to protect consumers from Wall Street, oppose
corporate tax breaks, and will bar secret campaign money so government works for the
middle class. That’s the kind of change they were hungry for."

"President Obama represents the Democrats’ national vision and identity, but he was invisible on
the economy for working people. Elites, op-ed writers and voters with college degrees appreciated
what the president accomplished, but not those in working class America who were struggling
with a different world. A majority of voters in the country said the economy was the single most
important issue and 54 percent wanted to see a bold change in direction in post-election polling."

"The President’s light footprint on the economy missed these Macomb County Trump voters, but
not a more populist economic positioning associated with Democratic Senators Sherrod Brown,
Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren. Two-thirds of the participants in our groups found this
Democratic profile more appealing than a moderate one focused on helping businesses be more
competitive globally so they create more jobs or a work and family profile focused on helping
workers and creating middle class jobs.

These are Democrats who support American jobs and strongly opposed NAFTA and
Obama’s trade deal, support policies to protect consumers from Wall Street and reckless
banks, want to get corporations to invest in their own workers and this country, want to
end tax breaks for companies sending jobs overseas, and want to bar secret corporate
campaign money so our government works for the middle class again."

"These Trump voters thought this was a party that must care about the working-class guy because:
  • It is serious about good American jobs. This was “all about jobs” they said. By opposing
NAFTA and encouraging corporations to invest in their workers, these Democrats
signal “they want to keep the jobs here and have the companies make their employees
stronger.” This is an agenda “about the middle class and working for the middle class to
bring us back.”
  • It puts ‘us’ before the elites. Taking on the reckless banks told them who you are really
for. Some said they were “really irritated about the reckless banks” and “protecting consumers
from Wall Street and reckless banks… was very important.” They recalled that
“we lost our home because of that” and “with the bailout, all the money went to the banks
and [the crisis] affected millions of people. And, then, a short time later, the banks were
back to these huge bonuses” and “there’s never really punishment for them.”
  • It takes on secret campaign money, which means they are real. For others, “talking
about barring secret corporate campaign money” was a major draw. With Trump’s talk of
self-funding, taking secret corporate money was “what Democrats did” and “they should
probably end it themselves.”
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Padawanbater2 said:
If I asked most midwestern Americans if they support the Affordable Care Act, they would agree. If I asked them if they support 'Obamacare', most would disagree. You are arguing that because most of these people call it 'Obamacare', that means they obviously don't support universal healthcare and they're not progressive.

You should do more reasearch
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Thanks for the advice.

Your argument seems too complicated. If a person votes for Donald Trump as well as reactionary right state government also for US Congress then they are supporting right wing politics. You can still call them progressives if they say they support the affordable care act even though they voted for the same people who are going to dismantle it, I guess. This makes no sense to me but it also makes no difference.

Whatever you want to call them, you still have to convince a fair number of middle Americans to vote otherwise. Do you really think the turing point is Wall Street and super pac campaign reform? Isn't the factory down the road that is off shoring 1000 jobs to India higher on their worry list? Campaign finance reform is an issue. But jobs, bread and butter issues have to be seen as a top priority.
 
twostrokenut

twostrokenut

Well-Known Member
tangerinegreen555 said:
It's a nice thought pada, but I don't think 'shaming' is an effective strategy.

You couldn't shame those who preach fake news. They're on an entirely different level.

You notice how many talk radio stations are conservative? People listen to and believe that shit.

As far as Manchin, he's from W.Va. isn't he? Land of the coal? I'd rather see him there than an R.

Maybe living in nice liberal Cali makes you think other states could be like that. Most republicans here call me a communist. I had a guy go insane because we had 7 Obama signs in my yard in 2012.

It's just not that easy. If it was, Trump wouldn't have squeaked through to the presidency.

On the bright side, we continue to get more votes nationally, not that it helps much. But it does prove the majority nationwide leans a little left. But those critical pockets of republicans in their gerrymandered areas continue to fuck things up.
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No, it proves the majority of the nation of California leans left, as you already acknowledged.
 
esh dov ets

esh dov ets

Well-Known Member
twostrokenut said:
No, it proves the majority of the nation of California leans left, as you already acknowledged.
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the nation of California? California has the largest population of left siders in the nation,mostly along the coast, but is not even lose to being all left. Oregon Washington and Vermont have relatively large progressive left demographics there are around 22 blue states
 
twostrokenut

twostrokenut

Well-Known Member
esh dov ets said:
the nation of California? California has the largest population of left siders in the nation,mostly along the coast, but is not even lose to being all left. Oregon Washington and Vermont have relatively large progressive left demographics there are around 22 blue states
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The difference in vote counts can be all covered in la county.
That's the magnitude.
 
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