And THIS CRAP is legal??? Grrr!

MacGuyver4.2.0

Well-Known Member
I'm a little disappointed by some of the comments here.
Let me summarize:
Doctors giving you a prescription for "Sour diesel" = good.
Doctors giving you a prescription for oxycodone = BAD!, they're it the pocket of "big pharma" and "creating addicts".
Guess what. . .oxycodone works a HELL of a lot better for most forms of pain than marijuana ever can, and the fact that it MIGHT be addicting is why doctors who are actually competent limit the number of tabs they'll dispense.
Well let's see...you are either a DOCTOR, or work in PHARMA. Your comments are obviously anti-MMJ as you say OxyCodone 'works' better for you than MMJ...very sad to hear indeed. Here's some review for you in case you missed it:

Oxycodone is now the most-abused medicine in the United States, with hydrocodone second, according to the Drug Enforcement Administration's annual count of drug seizures sent to police drug labs for analysis.
The latest drug tests come as more pharmaceutical companies are getting into the $10 billion-a-year legal market for powerful — and addictive — opiate narcotics.

and

Hydrocodone belongs to family of drugs known as opiates or opioids because they are chemically similar to opium. They include morphine, heroin, oxycodone, codeine, methadone and hydromorphone.
Opiates block pain but also unleash intense feelings of well-being and can create physical dependence. The withdrawal symptoms are also intense, with users complaining of cramps, diarrhea, muddled thinking, nausea and vomiting.
After a while, opiates stop working, forcing users to take stronger doses or to try slightly different chemicals.

Maybe you haven't been able to find a medical strain properly grown and dispensed to treat pain, we do not know. Also, everyone's tolerance of pain is quite different, that's a given. But the fact remains: Opiates and narcotics from 'doctors' that offer no other other beneficial factors, have horrible side effects and turn you into a pain med junkie...are not good. I have YET to see anyone suffer WITHDRAWAL symptoms (read- not use) from MMJ. Big pharmas days are numbered and the sooner the better.
 

Corso312

Well-Known Member
I'm a little disappointed by some of the comments here.

Let me summarize:

Doctors giving you a prescription for "Sour diesel" = good.
Doctors giving you a prescription for oxycodone = BAD!, they're it the pocket of "big pharma" and "creating addicts".

Guess what. . .oxycodone works a HELL of a lot better for most forms of pain than marijuana ever can, and the fact that it MIGHT be addicting is why doctors who are actually competent limit the number of tabs they'll dispense.


lol @ might..try again..how about highly addictive ..and is it more powerful than med mary? yes it is, so is heroin and alcohol and meth..actually the doctors are the shills for big pharma who continue to push this poison instead of med mary..med mary=big pharma losing billions of dollars in revenue yearly...so yeah the docs do share in some of the blame..if more mds were honest med mary would be a real alternative medicine at a cheap price.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
Well let's see...you are either a DOCTOR, or work in PHARMA. Your comments are obviously anti-MMJ as you say OxyCodone 'works' better for you than MMJ...very sad to hear indeed. Here's some review for you in case you missed it:

Oxycodone is now the most-abused medicine in the United States, with hydrocodone second, according to the Drug Enforcement Administration's annual count of drug seizures sent to police drug labs for analysis.
The latest drug tests come as more pharmaceutical companies are getting into the $10 billion-a-year legal market for powerful — and addictive — opiate narcotics.

and

Hydrocodone belongs to family of drugs known as opiates or opioids because they are chemically similar to opium. They include morphine, heroin, oxycodone, codeine, methadone and hydromorphone.
Opiates block pain but also unleash intense feelings of well-being and can create physical dependence. The withdrawal symptoms are also intense, with users complaining of cramps, diarrhea, muddled thinking, nausea and vomiting.
After a while, opiates stop working, forcing users to take stronger doses or to try slightly different chemicals.

Maybe you haven't been able to find a medical strain properly grown and dispensed to treat pain, we do not know. Also, everyone's tolerance of pain is quite different, that's a given. But the fact remains: Opiates and narcotics from 'doctors' that offer no other other beneficial factors, have horrible side effects and turn you into a pain med junkie...are not good. I have YET to see anyone suffer WITHDRAWAL symptoms (read- not use) from MMJ. Big pharmas days are numbered and the sooner the better.

Intractable, chronic pain demands very strong chemicals, again, while pot may aleviate some pain and may even enhance opioid effectivness, pot has limits. I know of plenty of people who have run into trouble smoking marijuana, I know of many who may not be technicaly addicted but are securely habituated to the use of pot. check on the threads that indicate how much people smoke, some upwards of half an ounce a week, do they actually NEED that much? In most cases I doubt it. Like it or not pot is not the innocent cure all so many seem to believe. Psychotic breaks, inhibited social skills, depleated immune systems are all possible consequences of the use of pot, medical or otherwise. It is well known that those who use opioids for aleviation of pain are less apt to become addicted and to those who need to use large amounts, addiction is the least of their worries. I know numbers of people who would never ever be able to funtion as normal working citizens without some of these "oh so nasty" drugs. Several have implanted morphine pumps - these people rarely believe that pot is the answer to their conditions. These sentiments do not make me a traitor to the legalize marijuana movement, they make me a realist - there are advantages and downfalls to each and every substance that man puts into their bodies.

Now sure big pharma is yet one more nefarious actor in the frailties of humanity but does anyone kid themselves that should pot become legal it would not be hawked (as it is in this thread) as the ultimate cureall, safe, effective and wonderful for everyone?
 

Jogro

Well-Known Member
Well let's see...you are either a DOCTOR, or work in PHARMA. Your comments are obviously anti-MMJ as you say OxyCodone 'works' better for you than MMJ...very sad to hear indeed.
Put down the pipe, sir. I think you're hallucinating (a recognized side effect of excessive cannabis usage). Where did I say I use oxycodone OR MMJ?

I said that opiates are by FAR better as pure pain relievers than cannabis is, which explains why everywhere that BOTH are legal, patients and doctors still overwhelmingly prefer opiates for acute pain relief. Addiction and side effects are relevant to why you'd pick one drug over another, but those are separate issues. If cannabis could truly replace opiates medically, nobody would ever use opiates. But that's not true, its never been true, and it never will be true.

I'm not against medical marijuana at all. I'm against the mistaken belief that cannabis is some sort of side-effect free miracle drug that can treat or cure anything, when quite plainly it cannot.

MMJ works well FOR CERTAIN APPLICATIONS. Despite claims to the contrary seen recently on this board, curing cancer, unfortunately isn't one of them.

Chronic musculoskeletal pain happens to be one of the things that MMJ actually does work well for, but its certainly not for everyone, nor does it mean that because cannabis works well for THIS kind of pain, that its the best for EVERY kind of pain, or that cannabis can wholesale replace opiates, or that cannabis doesn't come with its own set of side-effects and drawbacks.

In addition to pain relief, opiates also have multiple other medical uses beside pain control, including significant anti-spasmodic, anti-diarrhea, anti-seizure, and anti-coughing effects. Oh, and certain opiates can give you an erection (seriously. . .look it up). Even if we said that cannabis worked better for pain relief than opiates in EVERY circumstance (something that clearly is NOT true) it would still be foolish to entirely eliminate opiates from the pharmacies because of all the other benefits they have.


Here's some review for you in case you missed it:
Oxycodone is now the most-abused medicine in the United States, with hydrocodone second, according to the Drug Enforcement Administration's annual count of drug seizures sent to police drug labs for analysis.
Even stipulating that this fairly questionable statistic is correct, so what?
You're saying that whichever drug is the most abused one, that's the one that needs to be banned?
Everyone knows that opiates are widely abused. This has been true LONG before there was any such thing as "big pharma", and its true in places where there is no "big pharma".
Are you actually going to claim that:

a. Opiates (which, like cannabis, have ALSO been in wide medical use for thousands of years) have no medical value whatsoever and
b. Cannabis always works better than opiates for every person and every application?

Maybe you haven't been able to find a medical strain properly grown and dispensed to treat pain, we do not know. Also, everyone's tolerance of pain is quite different, that's a given. But the fact remains: Opiates and narcotics from 'doctors' that offer no other other beneficial factors, have horrible side effects and turn you into a pain med junkie...are not good. I have YET to see anyone suffer WITHDRAWAL symptoms (read- not use) from MMJ. Big pharmas days are numbered and the sooner the better.
I think one of the less recognized side effects of medical marijuana use is gratuitous use of the royal "we".

Other, more widely recognized side effects include: dry mouth, hallucination, throat irritation (from smoking), bronchitis, tachycardia, paranoia, lethargy, confusion, and short-term memory impairment. That's just off the top of my head, there are probably others.

The point is, MMJ isn't entirely risk or side-effect free either. Its may not be physiologically addicting in the same way that opiates are, but I think its pretty plain that plenty of people abuse it all the same. Its also pretty plain that MMJ is not for everyone. Some people simply cannot tolerate the physiologic side-effects of cannabis. The question for any individual user is whether the benefits outweigh the side effects and liabilities. . .same as any other medication.

Put differently, whether or not oxycodone should be available to patients is a different question than whether or not MMJ should be available. The drugs work differently and do different things. One simply does not substitute for the other.

As to the rest of your remarks, you're simply wrong.

Plenty of people use and have used opiates for pain relief without turning into junkies. In fact, given the prevalence of opiate use in hospitals for acute pain relief, its probably fair to say that MOST people given it for that reason do NOT become addicted.

On "big pharma" if you think doctors are just stupid puppets who hand out narcotics because "big pharma" is pulling their strings, you don't really understand what's going on. Doctors are complete idiots who don't know what they're doing and don't care for the well-being of their patients?

Opiates are relatively cheap to make and sell. The drug companies make money selling them, of course, but they are nowhere near the giant profit centers that other "blockbuster" drugs, like Crestor, Viagra, etc, are. You could get rid of all the legal narcotics tomorrow and all the big drug companies that you seem to hate so much would still be doing business just fine.

Furthermore, while you may not see any personal benefit to having new and effective effective cholesterol lowering drugs, anti-hypertensive drugs, antibiotics, anti-inflammatory medications, cancer chemotherapy agents, vaccines, and so forth, I assure you that plenty of people want these things to make their lives better and longer. So opiates or no opiates, I don't see why "Big pharma" is going to go away any time soon, nor why it ought to.
 

Jogro

Well-Known Member
Intractable, chronic pain demands very strong chemicals, again, while pot may aleviate some pain and may even enhance opioid effectivness, pot has limits.
Good stuff. I'd add that for many if not most pain-relief applications good old ibuprophen is actually superior to cannabis. Yeah. . .that's right, I'm saying for many simple aches and pains, the $2 bottle of motrin works BETTER than cannabis. Maybe not as fun to use, though.

Again, EVIL "big pharma" invented "Motrin" which for many years was an expensive prescription drug. Now that the company has made back its investment, plus a healthy dose of profit, the drug is widely available over the counter at literally only pennies per dose. Yet somehow "big pharma" (which I guess is code for any publically owned company that is engaged in for-profit development and sale of medicine) still makes money selling it.

So let me recap:

Big pharma, developing "miracle" anti-inflammatory drug Motrin from scratch and ultimately selling it for pennies: EVIL. . .they're making their money on the backs of sick people.

Marijuana dispensaries, collecting literally $$ millions in revenues charging $400/oz for a 10,000 year old herb easily grown in anyone's backyard: Courageous crusaders doing god's work.

Are we clear now?


Despite the fervent belief of cannabis enthusiasts, its really a disservice to the medical marijuana movement to make unrealistic claims about what cannabis can and can't do. When you start saying things like MMJ can cure cancer, or that it can entirely displace opiates for pain relief, or that nobody ever abuses cannabis as a mood-altering drug, well empirically false claims like that make it hard to take the messenger seriously. Wild eyed conspiracy theories ought to be the province of pot-smokers, not MMJ users.

In my opinion, ultimately MMJ should be seen like any another drug on the pharmacy shelf. Its good for some things, maybe truly excellent for some, but not so good for others. Like every other drug it is has its own side effects and drawbacks, and the prescribing physician and user need to consider weigh these things, as well as alternatives, for therapy. How it gets on the pharmacy shelf, or in what form(s) are a different issue.

Yeah, that's "crazy talk".

On the premise of this thread, my take is as follows:

Despite its high potential for abuse, oxycodone is legal specifically because of its excellence in relieving short term intense pain. Again, this isn't an "either/or" situation. Oxycodone and cannabis are different agents with different effects and side effects. You don't have to pick between them; you can have both.

If doctors can be trusted to prescribe opiates, cocaine, amphetamines, and various other mood-altering and potentially harmful drugs, then they ought to be trusted to prescribe cannabis, a drug widely used for medical purposes throughout literally all of recorded human history.
 

ford442

Well-Known Member
when i was a kid pills were not cool.. everybody smoked weed and some took psyches, but when Oxy hit the scene is actually created an epidemic of new addicts.. i think that adding another super powered narcotic is going to be just as bad if not worse.. i doubt that i ever have kids, but if i did then i would have to lecture them like an asshole if this is what i am up against..

i am not sure that i have seen people on a lot of Oxy, but if this is like more than morphine then the american people are about to become mindless non-voting drones no?
 

Jogro

Well-Known Member
when Oxy hit the scene is actually created an epidemic of new addicts
First of all, oxycodone isn't exactly a new drug. . .it was invented in 1916, specifically as an alternative to Bayer's heroin, which (oddly enough) was considered too addicting even back then.
Oxycontin is merely a slow/continuous release version of same, and its been available in the USA for about 15 years. That's longer than MMJ has been legal in the USA.

By definition, the term "epidemic" means a sudden increase in the incidence of a disease.
So yeah, OF COURSE if you introduce a new addicting drug to the marketplace there is going to be a sudden increase in the number of addicts as a bunch of new people try it or switch to it.
Any measurable increase from zero is, by definition an "epidemic".

In particular oxycontin (aka "hillbilly heroin") is widely abused because (unlike, say illegal heroin), its a pure pharmaceutical available in standardized doses, doesn't require needles, and is long-acting. Even though it won't get you as "high" as heroin, it also lacks many of the disadvantages including strong social stigma.

But again, just because a lot of people abuse a particular drug, doesn't mean it has no medical value or should be banned. Should we deny terminal cancer patients good pain control with morphine or oxycontin just because there are junkies out there who will abuse it?

I hope not, and this is why I find this whole thread disappointing. The same ones touting medical marijuana, presumably to treat their own symptoms, want to restrict opiates to other sick people because some people are abusing them? Glass houses. . .stones, etc.

.. i think that adding another super powered narcotic is going to be just as bad if not worse.. i doubt that i ever have kids, but if i did then i would have to lecture them like an asshole if this is what i am up against..
Another, compared to what? There are already any number of pretty potent opiates out there.

Yes, of course, we try to teach our children not to abuse drugs, including prescription ones, though I'd humbly suggest that "lecturing them like an asshole" probably isn't the best way to influence their behavior. If you do that, well, you might just succeed in convincing them that you're an asshole, and then they won't take what you say seriously.

i am not sure that i have seen people on a lot of Oxy, but if this is like more than morphine then the american people are about to become mindless non-voting drones no?
Its been fifteen years of oxycontin, and I don't think Americans are any more "mindless" today then they were then. Statistically, oxycontin has jumped to the top of the list of abused prescription drugs, but the overall incidence of abuse with oxycontin has probably peaked already. Unfortunately, there is some evidence to suggest that there has been some crossover with oxycontin addicts switching to heroin.

You've probably seen tons of people on oxycontin, just that they're going about their day to day lives, and you paid them no mind. Opiate addicts aren't necessarily raving lunatics, you know.
Once you've been addicted for a while to opiates, they mostly stop getting you "high"; just if you don't take the drug, you become violently ill.
 

ford442

Well-Known Member
i am not sure why you pick apart my sentiment - all i am saying is that more and more tempting and inebriating drugs are going to be problematic.. not that oxy makes you a drone - but 10 times oxy?
 
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