Dry Ice Winterizing

SaybianTv

Active Member
I have no idea the logic of dewaxing, it doesn't have reality to me. What's more anoying is it's some hidden process like never seeing anyone blast, it's always cut to a pan that's idle with booger's in it then grab a spoon. I don't know if people avoid the subject because it's dangerous, but product is even labeled dewaxed winterized. That doesn't even make any sense, that's like saying i cut off the fat then but i also removed the lard before cutting out the fat for less fat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bkIKAaqlMY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VAm6LBGGR4
 

Guzias1

Well-Known Member
Lolll. It just takes the right steps.

Syb. We dissolve the fresh bho in everclear.. this usually takes me some heat..

You know it's completely dissolved once the fog turns to clear Amber or so..

That step is important.

I am able to then place in my freezer and chill it to under 12f.

Once it gets that cold, I start to see the waxes clouding up..

Sometimes I let it cloud up for Few days. Sometimes 12 hours.. once in freezer. Really no rush from here on out..

Just gotta be patient..

I once ran a big return. I winterized out once. Filtered. Then re winterized it a 2nd time. And separated just a few more grams of shit..

Soooo. I'm all for winterizing.

My knowledge is still limited, but I don't think wet can avoid not winterzing butane runs, no matter how super cold or fancy you may blast it.
 

SaybianTv

Active Member
That's the thing about what I can't see in all these dewaxing video's and inferential talks. I winterize just fine, i got my greedy bastard speed version. I just wanted to try this dewaxing so my lungs can give me a report and my tongue can give me a +- on the taste. I'd rather keep 80% taste and loose 80% fat than loose 100% fat and unknown amounts of taste. I just wanna sleep knowing i did all i could to keep every bit. Filter run's don't yield me anything I dunno how many grams you yield before your suppose to filter hunt. Like i said im looking at making lotion from trich heads, im the type to suspect there's gold in ore so I store everything. Fuck i still have the kief from my first run on my desk just in case there's a breakthrough in cbd yields from trash for ointment.

Why do I get the feeling this secret dewaxing is just pouring everclear into your tane pile while it's still deep and cold to both evap out the tane but also give enough etoh to force out the wax under those cold conditions. That's why there not showing it, it's not different the winterizing just more dangerous because there not waiting for the butane to boil down because it's the coolant for the everclear.

Ok at least to me the case is closed on that stupid trade secret for something everyone's doing safely.

Guz your knowledge is just fine if you've found yourself on a forum contributing in the first place. Outside I can't find a single hashmaker that goes further than facebook when it comes to accessing information. Ok maybe the meth head in the ally has read the Best Hash Ever thread, but that's as far as it goes.
 

Bublonichronic

Well-Known Member
Why do I get the feeling this secret dewaxing is just pouring everclear into your tane pile while it's still deep and cold to both evap out the tane but also give enough etoh to force out the wax under those cold conditions. That's why there not showing it, it's not different the winterizing just more dangerous because there not waiting for the butane to boil down because it's the coolant for the everclear.

.
wait I thought the big secret dewax was just super chill ur solvent? But that that dosent take the place of a winterization?
But ur talkin bout usin the temp of the tane to freeze the etho and precip out waxes? Shit, now I'm lost
[youtube]VW27kyh7PVM[/youtube]
 

mrcryce

Well-Known Member
I have no idea the logic of dewaxing, it doesn't have reality to me. What's more anoying is it's some hidden process like never seeing anyone blast, it's always cut to a pan that's idle with booger's in it then grab a spoon. I don't know if people avoid the subject because it's dangerous, but product is even labeled dewaxed winterized. That doesn't even make any sense, that's like saying i cut off the fat then but i also removed the lard before cutting out the fat for less fat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bkIKAaqlMY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VAm6LBGGR4
I watched the first video and I am almost positive that the stuff he is scooping is not plant waxes but ice.

Dewaxing is not a secret process, and I dont think anyone winterizing scoops with a spoon because after chilling EtOH + BHO the waxy crap actually will be on the bottom of your container, not the top. Pouring cold EtOH into your tane soup is not the right way to do it. If you pour cold EtOH into the tane soup and then pop the mixture into the freezer, there is a good chance that when you remove it from the freezer the next day there will still be tane in the mix.

"Dewaxed and winterized" is redundant, AFAIK they both mean the same thing.
 

SaybianTv

Active Member
That the thing about the argument in the video, his conditions are to still for globs of fice to be sitting out. It's not ice.
What im trying to figure out is if dewaxing and winterizing are or are not redundant by deduction. I can't scoop with a spoon either so what is it, you can't pull that much water out of the atmosphere and compact it.
Im guessing at the part where you could add etoh to the pyrex to give the fats the polar they need to fall out is where you could call it dewaxing because you'r not truly sure how far you've gone. I mean the term winterizing isn't exactly any more scientific, i have yet to see lard appear out of liquor in the winter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS5E_W4wprc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-TRdq57H-g
 

qwizoking

Well-Known Member
I don't know who coined "winterize" but it means nothing in the real world...at least not in the sense of having anything to do with cooling a mix and filtering a precipitate.... however many people winterize their homes every year....
Dewaxing is the proper name. ...idk how winterization came about
 

mrcryce

Well-Known Member
That the thing about the argument in the video, his conditions are to still for globs of fice to be sitting out. It's not ice.
What im trying to figure out is if dewaxing and winterizing are or are not redundant by deduction. I can't scoop with a spoon either so what is it, you can't pull that much water out of the atmosphere and compact it.
Im guessing at the part where you could add etoh to the pyrex to give the fats the polar they need to fall out is where you could call it dewaxing because you'r not truly sure how far you've gone. I mean the term winterizing isn't exactly any more scientific, i have yet to see lard appear out of liquor in the winter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS5E_W4wprc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-TRdq57H-g
Next time you blast and scoop off this "wax" give it a poke with your fingers and feel how brittle it is. I have scooped off ice from large blast runs too and it is definitely BRITTLE like ice and not goopy like the wax that collects in your filter after a dewaxing. The second video that he posts does not prove anything about the nature of the glob in video #1. You will often get a waxy mess like shown in video #2 after purging a sample with high water content.
 

mrcryce

Well-Known Member
I don't know who coined "winterize" but it means nothing in the real world...at least not in the sense of having anything to do with cooling a mix and filtering a precipitate.... however many people winterize their homes every year....
Dewaxing is the proper name. ...idk how winterization came about
I suspect it was popularized by our Russian friend who first made information about this technique widely known to these circles ;)
 

MiG pilot

Well-Known Member
Hey mrcryce !

I have to agree that I was involved in popularization,

but the term was coined much earlier,

United States Patent 3,048,491
1962 (Filed Mar. 8, 1960) Winterization process http://www.google.com/patents/US3048491

With regard to cannabis, the term "winterization" used in the patents 2001-2005.

I do not like the poetic imagery of the word, but it is correct and generally accepted term.
 

qwizoking

Well-Known Member
"Winterization of oil is a process of removing of the higher melting point parts from oil like waxes or triglycerides by slowly cooling vegetable oils and felling saturated glycerides from the solvent. Used primarily for oils in salad dressings"

Hmmn what do ya know..after much searching its a term used in making mayo for example.. removing the fats with a higher melting point so it doesnt solidify in the fridge.......Still no relation whatsoever to what we do in hash making process.....interesting though.....pretty hard to find, not really anything about it, there is a very short Wikipedia page containing the above definition..it then redirects to the real definition of winterize .

Also thought it was pretty funny that patent had many misspelled words/grammatical errors
"WENTERHZATEON PROCESS , in vention" haha
 

MiG pilot

Well-Known Member
....pretty hard to find,
Quote to hint –

"One need only study the basic details of GW’s original process patent filed in 2002, and issued by the US Patent and Trademark Office in 2008, to see how their product is nothing more than a highly characterized, twenty-first century version of hash oil
...
In the final step, winterization, inert waxy materials are precipitated out of the extract using a cold ethanol wash and then filtered out. Once the ethanol is added, the mixture is cooled to minus twenty degrees Celsius for approximately two days. The waxy precipitate is removed by filtration through a twenty micron membrane."
 

MiG pilot

Well-Known Member
Another quote from G.O.Joe -

", so if anyone wants to know what happens when you substitute other things for Everclear, there's this patent.
It pre-dates GW Pharma winterization claims that were patented anyways.

http://www.google.com/patents/US6730519
The relevant part is at the end where they analyze the use of different alcohols with different amounts of water in them, and other things. "
 

mrcryce

Well-Known Member
Here this is why it won't work....since you didn't want to check the page...there's a lot of info not on a purge in that thread.....
winterizing removes the fats,waxes and other lipophillic (fat loving)compounds. What makes them lipophillic or hydrophillic is based on polarity... butane is non polar (lipophillic) ethanol and iso are relatively polar, meaning they won't allow lipophillic substances...

Solubility is largely based on polarity and temp. so if you heat the polar ethanol or iso it will absorb the extract left from a butane wash. After freezing it the solubility of the waxes and fats decreases. These lipophillic non polar waxes precipitate as a solidout of the solution. It can then be filtered

The waxes and fats removed make up the harshness and congestive properties smoked hash oil can sometimes bring. This process does not remove terpenes and will drastically increase the quality of a butane(non polar) extract... if you start with an isoor etoh wash its not as necessary and shatter can easily be produced using a single polar wash.. iso in the middle of butane and ethanol polarity wise giving the best extract only using asingle wash......but for compounds such as thca and precursory cannabinoids to move about the plant (as well as all compounds within the plant) they must be relatively polar. Because of this iso or etohcan extract a dirty product if left in solvent too long....which is why a long soak in butane that's allowed to pull every last cannabinoid and wax/fat. And then winterized to remove the wax/fats will give a better yield of quality product than iso or etoh.

Fats and waxes are highly lipophillic. For a compound to have drug likeness it must be polar to aslight degree(allowing crossing of the blood brain barrier and to be soluble in the blood).. this slight polarity helps keep them in the ethanol as all cannabinoids have a hydroxyl group when the also lipophillic fats get pulled, the fats and waxes are also larger heavier compounds which hinders solubility. winterizing is how commercial perfume/essential oils are made, and if done properly will not harm the flavor, though Ishould mention the waxes and fats pulled often are somewhat fragrant.. It should be noted thc itself is an aromatic monoterpene, anything affecting flavor effects potency. I do all my extracts in the dark and under 70 degrees even in the purge. 75 degrees or so is when lighter terpenes began to volatize into the air (Ialso dry/cure at 70 or under for this reason)

polarity is relative, butane does not have a polar hydroxyl group -oh while iso and etoh do . This is responsible for iso's high boiling point, even though its molecular weight is very similar to butane. and why water boils at amuch higher temp, being muchlighter than butane or iso. Hydrogen bonding is the strongest intra molecular force. Imfs are what determine solubility. Their is no defining line between polar and non polar. Its how polar or non polar. To find out,the biggest clue is molecular structure. ch bonds are non polar making hexane with more carbon a better non polar solvent. These hydrocarbon solvents lack the polar hydroxyl group that water iso and ever clear have.. but for them to hold cannabinoids in suspension and dissolve them they must also have anon polar side, which is why you can't winterize in water...likewise You can't winterize in a completely non polar solvent either. Iso is actually quite non polar, so is ethanol. Look at a ph index polar water is 9iso somewhere around 4 etoh 6and butane 0.. this is just an estimate off memory.. Etoh is best, iso will work butane will not. This is because of the waxes increasing solubility in the non polar solvents.
Hey qwizoking I was thinking about what you said some more. Based on the chemistry that you presented, would it be accurate to say that a cold iso wash would yield a product similar in consistency to dewaxed BHO, because the cold iso reduces the solubility of the waxes and fats so they do not get dissolved in the extraction process? Thanks for all the insight.
 

qwizoking

Well-Known Member
A cold iso wash will yield shatter almost every time yes..probly will wax a bit easier than winterized bho though and other consistencies....
Combined with iso's properties over bho..the cold also slows the rate it(any compound) is dissolved into the solvent, especially heavier and more non polar components

But in bho making this topic has come up, if you run frozen tane is it essentially winterized? And the answer is no. Iso is polar, no matter how much you freeze butane it will still prefer all non polar compounds over mostly non polar..make sense?
If not..you know...I'll write up a essay for you............ 'd rather not though....is 'd a word? Like slang or whatever that's called ..even shorter than I'd.

Shit...I been smoking...ramble done..
 

mrcryce

Well-Known Member
A cold iso wash will yield shatter almost every time yes..probly will wax a bit easier than winterized bho though and other consistencies....
Combined with iso's properties over bho..the cold also slows the rate it(any compound) is dissolved into the solvent, especially heavier and more non polar components

But in bho making this topic has come up, if you run frozen tane is it essentially winterized? And the answer is no. Iso is polar, no matter how much you freeze butane it will still prefer all non polar compounds over mostly non polar..make sense?
If not..you know...I'll write up a essay for you............ 'd rather not though....is 'd a word? Like slang or whatever that's called ..even shorter than I'd.

Shit...I been smoking...ramble done..
I appreciate the generous offer, but you don't need to write an essay on the subject :) Thanks for the explanation that was very helpful!
 
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