Faster than the speed of light

FilthyFizzle

Active Member
Has anyone heard of neutrinos? Pretty interesting, some scientist have been doing studies with these nearly mass less sub particles and have possibly proven E=mc2 to be incorrect. It is my understanding that if this is true, time travel would be possible. If the mass reaches the finish line before the image it is in a way being in two places at once. Check it out
 
yeah they are doing it at the large hadron collider in switzerland. the thing is neutrinos are very small with not much mass. moving anything bigger is a lot harder. unless your thinking star trek beam me up shit.
 

darkdestruction420

Well-Known Member
It would only enable forward time travel but yes in a way . If a particle with mass(as neutrinos must be as they experience flavor oscilations) were to somehow reach infinite energy, which is required for objects with mass to hit the speed of light, time would seem to stand still from its perspective but to someone on earth time would go on as normal. The closer you get to the speed of light the more time slows down. up to the point of the photon which does not experience time at all. The scientific community and the authors of the paper are all very very skeptical(not in like a bad way) at the moment and released the data because they went through it over and over again to try to figure out what was causing it and could still not and we're hoping someone else could find what they could not. their are actually studies and observations that should of shown this before now that have not. still a cool topic though.

here are a bunch of really interesting articles on it.
http://www.physorg.com/search/?search=cern+opera
 

darkdestruction420

Well-Known Member
what i consider incredible is that every second 60 billion neutrinos pass through every square inch of your body. It's really lucky for us neutrinos only experience the weak force and gravity but dont carry an electric charge so are not affected by electromagnetism.
 
another good thing they have got from this large hadron collider, antimatter! that shit is the future. just have to find a way to produce alot of it at a low price. easier said than done.
 

Brick Top

New Member
Has anyone heard of neutrinos?

Yes.


Scientists Report Second Sighting of Faster-Than-Light Neutrinos

By DENNIS OVERBYE

Published: November 18, 2011






Few scientists are betting against Einstein yet, but the phantom neutrinos of Opera are still eluding explanation.




Two months after scientists reported that they had clocked subatomic particles known as neutrinos going faster than the speed of light, to the astonishment and vocal disbelief of most of the world’s physicists, the same group of scientists, known as Opera, said on Friday that it had performed a second experiment that confirmed its first results and eliminated one possible explanation for how the experiment could have gone wrong.
But the group admitted that many questions remain. “This is not the end of the story,” said Antonio Ereditato of the University of Bern in Switzerland, the spokesman for the collaboration, explaining that physicists would not accept the result that neutrinos could go faster than light until other experiments had come up with the same conclusion. “We are convinced, but that is not enough in science,” he said.
Other physicists said they remained skeptical that the universe was about to be overturned.
The speed of light was established as the cosmic speed limit, at least for ordinary matter in ordinary space, in 1905 by Albert Einstein’s theory of relativity (now known as special relativity), foreclosing the possibility of time travel into the past or of timely travel to other stars.
Neutrinos, though ghostly in many regards — they are able to traverse planets and walls of lead like light through a window, and to shape-shift from one of three varieties of the particle to another along the way — are part of the universe, and so there was no reason to expect that Einstein’s stricture should not apply to them as well.
But over the course of the last three years, in experiments designed to investigate this shape shifting, neutrinos produced at CERN, the European Organization for Nuclear Research, and beamed underground to the Gran Sasso National Laboratory in Italy, an underground facility about 450 miles away, arrived about 58 billionths of a second sooner than would a light beam, according to Opera. The group is based at Gran Sasso, which is near L’Aquila; CERN is in Geneva.
When these results were presented to a meeting at CERN in September, after a prairie fire of blog rumors, they were greeted by fierce skepticism. Among the problems with the original experiment, scientists said, was that the neutrinos were produced in bursts 10,000 billionths of a second long — much bigger than the discrepancy in arrival time.
Last month CERN retooled so that the neutrinos could be produced in shorter bursts, only 3 billionths of a second long, making it easier to match neutrinos at Gran Sasso with neutrinos at CERN, and the experiment was briefly repeated. The neutrinos still arrived early, about 62 billionths of a second early, in good agreement with the original result and negating the possibility, the Opera team said, that the duration of the neutrino pulse had anything to do with the results.
The details of both the first and second round of experiments are contained in a paper posted on the Internet at http://arxiv.org/abs/1109.4897 and submitted to the Journal of High Energy Physics. In response to reports that some members of the Opera group had refused to sign a preliminary version of the paper in September, Dr. Ereditato said of the new paper, “They all signed.”
Physicists said the new paper had answered some of the questions about the experiment, but many remain: for example, about how the clocks were synchronized between Geneva and Gran Sasso, and how the distance between them was ascertained. “It does appear that they have done a good job,” said John Learned, a neutrino physicist at the University of Hawaii at Manoa who was not involved in the experiment. But, he added, “If there is a deep systematic error in the calculation of expected time difference, this remains.”
Alvaro de Rujula, a CERN theorist, said there were two interpretations of the experiment. “One is that they have stumbled upon a revolutionary discovery; the other, on which I would place my bet, is that they are still making and not finding the very same error.”
In the meantime, Einstein sleeps peacefully.
Asked if he had seen any interesting theoretical explanations of how neutrinos could violate the speed of light among the papers that have been flooding the internet these past two months, Dr. Ereditato demurred. “That’s not our business,” he said. “A good experimentalist tries to be as cool as possible.”
Dr. Learned and Dr. de Rujula both said there were no convincing theories out there yet. “The theory papers are amusing in that it more and more points out how very much trouble this result will cause, if verified,” Dr. Learned said in an e-mail.
He added, “Fun!”

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/19/science/space/neutrino-finding-is-confirmed-in-second-experiment-opera-scientists-say.html


But then there is this.


Faster-than-light neutrinos dealt another blow


Read more: "Neutrinos: Complete guide to the ghostly particle"
Faster-than-light neutrinos can't catch a break. If they exist they would not only flout special relativity but also the fundamental tenet that energy is conserved in the universe. This suggests that either the speedy neutrino claim is wrong or that new physics is needed to account for it.
In September, physicists with the OPERA experiment in Gran Sasso, Italy, reported that neutrinos had apparently travelled there from CERN near Geneva, Switzerland, faster than light.
The claim threatened to blow a hole in modern physics – chiefly Einstein's special theory of relativity, which set the speed of light as the absolute limit for all particles in the universe.
Now a team including Shmuel Nussinov of Tel Aviv University in Israel says it could also put a dent in the principle of the conservation of energy. "This is such a holy principle that has been verified in so many ways," he says.
The speeding neutrinos were born in a particle accelerator at CERN, when protons slammed into a stationary target and produced a shower of unstable particles called pions. Each pion quickly decayed into both a neutrino and a heavier particle called a muon.
The muons stopped at the end of a tunnel, but the neutrinos, which slip through most matter like ghosts, continued 730 kilometres through the Earth to the OPERA experiment.
Unequal inheritance

The neutrinos apparently outpaced light by 60 nanoseconds. But if energy is conserved – that is, if the daughter muon and neutrino together have the same amount of energy as the pion they decayed from – the neutrinos could not have gone so fast, the team say.
That's because the rules for inheriting energy treat slow-moving particles differently from those moving close to the speed of light. If the neutrinos did begin their lives moving faster than light, then their slower muon siblings should have gotten the lion's share of their parents' energy.
"It's like a very rich father with a son who wants to go into business and continue by the rules, and a son who's a black sheep," Nussinov says. "He bequeaths everything to the good son, and gives the other one literally nothing."
The energy available to faster-than-light neutrinos from the CERN pions is too small by a factor of 10 to explain the speeds reported, the team say.
Could the neutrinos have started off slow, thereby getting a larger share of the inheritance, and then been accelerated somehow? Possibly, but Nussinov says this is unlikely because neutrinos usually do not interact with anything, making it hard to understand what could be doing the accelerating.
'Absolute contradiction'

This unequal energy inheritance is even more pronounced if the parent pion has more energy – the more energetic the pion is, the more energy it gives to the muon.
This can be seen in atmospheric pions, which are produced when cosmic rays slam into the atmosphere. Atmospheric pions are 100 to 1000 times more energetic than the pions produced at CERN, and their muon and neutrino progeny have correspondingly high energies.
If neutrinos really can outstrip light as much as the OPERA measurement suggests, the atmospheric pions should decay completely into muons. Curtailing the number of possible decay routes means the pions should decay less often, and the team calculates that they should slam into the Earth before they get a chance to decay. In that case, we should not see any high-energy muons or neutrinos at all.
But we do. Experiments like the IceCube neutrino telescope
at the South Pole have seen high-energy neutrinos – and billions of muons to boot.
"We have an absolute contradiction right there," Nussinov says. "We know there are many, many neutrinos produced with high energy."
Exotic explanations

The argument adds to a growing list of theoretical strikes against faster-than-light neutrinos. The most popular so far claims that if the particles ever broke the speed of light, they would quickly radiate away their energy and slow down.
"We say energetic neutrinos of this deviant type will never be born; they say if they are born, they will die quickly," Nussinov says.
Both arguments are worrisome, agrees OPERA team member Luca Stanco of the National Institute of Nuclear Physics in Italy, who did not sign the original version of the paper because he thought it was too preliminary.
"As a result, you may understand that the physics community (and myself, in particular) is still quite embarrassed by the OPERA measurement: it does not fit well in any physics frame now known," he says. "We urgently require an independent confirmation of the OPERA measurement."
If the measurement holds up, the only way out may be to break all the rules, Nussinov says. "I would have loved to have [the result be true], but it's just inconsistent with basic, basic things," he says. "The only way to avoid this thing is to assume that, well, maybe on the way they went to other dimensions or something."
Journal reference: Physical Review Letters, DOI: 10.1103/PhysRevLett.107.251801

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn21328-fasterthanlight-neutrinos-dealt-another-blow.html
 

eye exaggerate

Well-Known Member
...the original hypothesis was 25 years in the discovering. Lots to learn, I guess.

...the neat thing is, if our way of thinking about the universe is turned on its head, wouldn't that render all of what we've achieved to this point fluke? I mean to say - it all happened anyway. Someone with a zen jacket might say it all just amounts to now.
 

carl.burnette

Well-Known Member
You ever think that everything we react with or respond to is in the past? Even when you see something 10' in front of you, it happened in the past. The time it took the light to get your eyes.

Think about yelling in a field. We used to do it all the time on the farm. The person would be done speaking even before you heard their first word. You could tell by their actions & what not. Now, light does the same thing.

You have NEVER seen anything as it happened.

Never...


Ever....


whoa....


OK.. Now Im scared...

but I dont know why...

:)
 

ginjawarrior

Well-Known Member
...the original hypothesis was 25 years in the discovering. Lots to learn, I guess.

...the neat thing is, if our way of thinking about the universe is turned on its head, wouldn't that render all of what we've achieved to this point fluke? I mean to say - it all happened anyway. Someone with a zen jacket might say it all just amounts to now.
no nothing about what we have done so far would be a fluke

there have been a couple rule rewrites (refinements fits better) in the past

newton gave us the laws of gravity
einstien refined that with special relativity
both are still valid and can/ have been used with great effect for differing purposes

nothing about any of this needs anyone in any zen jacket or flowing robes or any other "spiritual robes" to say a dam thing about it ;)

can carl.burnette is right "now" is nothing more than an illusion
 

eye exaggerate

Well-Known Member
no nothing about what we have done so far would be a fluke

there have been a couple rule rewrites (refinements fits better) in the past

newton gave us the laws of gravity
einstien refined that with special relativity
both are still valid and can/ have been used with great effect for differing purposes

nothing about any of this needs anyone in any zen jacket or flowing robes or any other "spiritual robes" to say a dam thing about it ;)

carl.burnette is right "now" is nothing more than an illusion

...the man who gave you the neutrino said that 'we' needed to include paraphysics into new physics.

;) (sorry, I had to :) )
 

FilthyFizzle

Active Member
Just found this. Give it a look if you have time
[video=youtube_share;uY3CVZd5b1g]http://youtu.be/uY3CVZd5b1g[/video]
 

Farfenugen

Well-Known Member
bunch of silly egg-heads are going to suck the entire universe inside out with that billion dollar machine, sure, it's all about understanding the universe and how we're made etc etc etc, but you could get all that with a few tokes on some DMT
 

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
I was going to write a joke about light speed... but a neutrino beat me to it.

Hipsters liked neutrinos before they arrived.

Want to hear a joke about neutrinos? It'd probably go straight through you.

"Knock, knock.
Neutrino!
Who's there?"

A neutrino walks into a bar with a cigarette in its mouth.
"Need a light?" asks the bartender.
"I'm one step ahead of you", replies the neutrino.

Why did the neutrino get the job as a programmer? He turned out to be good at c++.

"We don’t allow faster-than-light neutrinos in here,” said the bartender. A neutrino walks into a bar.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
...the original hypothesis was 25 years in the discovering. Lots to learn, I guess.

...the neat thing is, if our way of thinking about the universe is turned on its head, wouldn't that render all of what we've achieved to this point fluke? I mean to say - it all happened anyway. Someone with a zen jacket might say it all just amounts to now.

I have a Zen jacket.
~sound of one hand zipping~
cn
 
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