Bublonichronic
Well-Known Member
oh....so i was right about FFOF.....ahha
EDIT: just so you dont come back with some stupid shit like "drrr but i was talkin about promix"....no you (we) wernt, re read the thread name, and the post i make
Fox Farm Ocean Forest Soil and Ph?
- Thread starter max316420
- Start date
EDIT: just so you dont come back with some stupid shit like "drrr but i was talkin about promix"....no you (we) wernt, re read the thread name, and the post i make
Nullis
Moderator
Lol...only 'noobs' use Ocean Forest...right. You could take your girl to the Taco Bell drive-thru, maybe McDonalds, with the $5 you might save. Come to think of it you're probably going to spend quite a bit more on all of the ingredients to make your own soil mix than you would for a bag or two of Ocean Forest; it's just that the ingredients themselves in bulk will last longer. Time is money too though, my friend.
Oyster shell is a perfectly fine liming agent. It is really the same thing as garden lime, which is the same thing as crushed eggshell (calcitic lime). Dolomitic lime just has a magnesium content, also. There always seems to be some confusion when it comes to lime. People should really consider doing some general reading on soil science/bio and horticulture. Too many come here, ignorant, pick up info from the forums from a bunch of dim-wits and children (no offense) who are only concerned about growing weed and whatever they think is going to make their plant potent or yield big, etc. Not saying that everybody here is a moron, but too many people just don't seem to know enough. They may know some good info and some bad info, or else have no clue what is good/bad or how/if it even applies to themselves and others.
...Then you have Total Head, who I would have thought might be a reasonable one, insisting there is absolutely no lime in Ocean Forest and accusing somebody of trolling as they post the ingredients that state 'oyster shell...pH adjustment'. Granted neither seemed to realize that oyster shell was the liming agent but c'mon...pH adjustment - I know if I am not sure what something is exactly I make damn sure I find out before I start being an asshole. And then three people 'Like' that statement including Bublonichronic whom I thought was being accused of trolling in the first place. Confusing as fuck.
max you should never have to adjust to pH of any water or fertigation solutions that go into a good organic soil like Ocean Forest. Liquid pH Up only leads to more issues when growing in soil. Oyster shell is there to help the soil resist any major drop in pH (the humus plays a role in this also), and dolomite lime or garden lime can be added during the final transplant in sufficient quantities or watering in periodically to raise pH and supply calcium/magnesium. If the nutrients you use are very acidic it stands to reason that more lime will have to be added sooner; otherwise the oyster shell already present in OF can last for up to several weeks.
Oyster shell is a perfectly fine liming agent. It is really the same thing as garden lime, which is the same thing as crushed eggshell (calcitic lime). Dolomitic lime just has a magnesium content, also. There always seems to be some confusion when it comes to lime. People should really consider doing some general reading on soil science/bio and horticulture. Too many come here, ignorant, pick up info from the forums from a bunch of dim-wits and children (no offense) who are only concerned about growing weed and whatever they think is going to make their plant potent or yield big, etc. Not saying that everybody here is a moron, but too many people just don't seem to know enough. They may know some good info and some bad info, or else have no clue what is good/bad or how/if it even applies to themselves and others.
...Then you have Total Head, who I would have thought might be a reasonable one, insisting there is absolutely no lime in Ocean Forest and accusing somebody of trolling as they post the ingredients that state 'oyster shell...pH adjustment'. Granted neither seemed to realize that oyster shell was the liming agent but c'mon...pH adjustment - I know if I am not sure what something is exactly I make damn sure I find out before I start being an asshole. And then three people 'Like' that statement including Bublonichronic whom I thought was being accused of trolling in the first place. Confusing as fuck.
max you should never have to adjust to pH of any water or fertigation solutions that go into a good organic soil like Ocean Forest. Liquid pH Up only leads to more issues when growing in soil. Oyster shell is there to help the soil resist any major drop in pH (the humus plays a role in this also), and dolomite lime or garden lime can be added during the final transplant in sufficient quantities or watering in periodically to raise pH and supply calcium/magnesium. If the nutrients you use are very acidic it stands to reason that more lime will have to be added sooner; otherwise the oyster shell already present in OF can last for up to several weeks.
Bublonichronic
Well-Known Member
that was epic,
That last sentence seems to sum it up with OF and the problems some encounter (usually in flower), with it. Yeah, they add it, and other brands/labels use dolomite lime. They just don't add ENOUGH to get you through a grow. Right when the cal/mag needs are increasing (in flower), and pH is trying to drop because of the peat breaking down, that oyster shell or dolomite so proudly listed on the ingredients, has been depleted. Many just don't seem to grasp, that besides the pH buffering, this stuff actually gets consumed by the plant and can run out. For some of my long term stuff, like Alliums, with a 8 month growing season, I also add pelletized lime to the mix. It takes 2+ months to start breaking down, right about the time the powdered lime is running out/down.
Wet
max316420
Well-Known Member
oh....so i was right about FFOF.....ahha
EDIT: just so you dont come back with some stupid shit like "drrr but i was talkin about promix"....no you (we) wernt, re read the thread name, and the post i make
duhhhhhh I was asking about ff but then asked about promix DUHHHH
max316420
Well-Known Member
Ok so maybe people that don't add lime are lucky or their water might be different?? But not in my case... WETDOG, what you said makes complete sense and I'm gonna take your advise because its seems logical and you seem like you know alot more than some of these dumbass's that will post anything even if they don't know. So I got a 50lb bag of lime, its not pellets but is a powder and now i would like your advice on how much to add to 1 full bag of FFOC AND how much should I add to my promix bx? I don't wanna over do it but I also read that if you don't use enough than it's useless that you even put it in there? I have never had to measure soil out before so im kinda clueless on how people measure soil say by the gallon and all that happy horse shit
a dog named chico
Well-Known Member
I LOVE FFOF AS IS!!! never had an issue. the only warning i offer when using this soil is it can be a little harsh on new seedlings.
EDIT: I also use the tri-pack of nutes, blackstrap, and cal-mag sup (if needed)
EDIT: I also use the tri-pack of nutes, blackstrap, and cal-mag sup (if needed)
Bublonichronic
Well-Known Member
never said lime = lack of growing skill....what i said was lime isnt needed in FFOF, and it isnt.... atleast not for a 2+ month flower cycle... now if you got a plant in the container for like 6 mths or somthin, shit i would say add some MAYBE...but no one answerd me as to why they use oyster shells in the "premium mix" (i wrote FF years ago, wondering what was better, that is actually what they call it)and lime in the happyfrog starter soil....there gotta be somthing to that...maybe oysters are more stable? last longer? i dont know im no scientist, but im sure the people at FF sure looked into that...and judging by how the soil works they made a good decision...i gotta go water my monster plants with no leaf problems in FFOF, peace fellers!
EDIT apparently oyster shells are more efficent at raising pH than lowering... http://www.scribd.com/doc/2176982/The-Potential-of-Crushed-Oyster-Shells-as-pH-Buffer
dazerous
Member
Max ive got the exact same problem here, same results on runoff. what got my attention was ive got 3 nirvana ice in there on there 7th week of flower and there starting to yellow midplant yet the 22 other plants other than ice are perfect. so i tested like you did and found the same results 5.5ph so is that why my ice are doing the the yellowing. I have used ffof many times but never had this problem.posting pics for the pros please let me know still got a couple weeks to go.or is it to late?Just to make sure, it doesn't say *hydrated* on that bag of lime does it? Just powdered or ground? I ask because I almost picked up a 100LB bag of Dolomite lime at Tractor Supply for cheap until I looked real close and saw it was hydrated dolomite lime. Lowes is the only place around me that has the ground/powdered. Everyone has the pellets.
Like I said, I make my own mix in 2cf batches and measure the lime accordingly.
IDK how much you're going to mix at once.
1CuFt=~7.5 gallons. So, 3-5 gallon Homer buckets would =2CuFt. That would be one way to measure it out. Makes a good wheelbarrow full and easy to mix. Put in a big trashcan after mixing.
The bale of Promix will expand out to around 7CuFt, so 6-7 cups of lime for the entire bale (3.8cf bale). The bag of FFOF should be 1 1/2CuFt= 1 1/2 cups of lime.
Myself, I would do the mixing 2cf thing, unless you have the room and a strong back. LOL
Remember, it takes a couple of weeks for the lime to start working and it doesn't start working until it is moistened.
Wet
Like I said, I make my own mix in 2cf batches and measure the lime accordingly.
IDK how much you're going to mix at once.
1CuFt=~7.5 gallons. So, 3-5 gallon Homer buckets would =2CuFt. That would be one way to measure it out. Makes a good wheelbarrow full and easy to mix. Put in a big trashcan after mixing.
The bale of Promix will expand out to around 7CuFt, so 6-7 cups of lime for the entire bale (3.8cf bale). The bag of FFOF should be 1 1/2CuFt= 1 1/2 cups of lime.
Myself, I would do the mixing 2cf thing, unless you have the room and a strong back. LOL
Remember, it takes a couple of weeks for the lime to start working and it doesn't start working until it is moistened.
Wet
ebcpsavedmylife
Member
I'm sorry I wasn't going to say anything; but wow this has really turned into some school girl bullshit. I thought the name of the game here was to post your results, and how you were able to achieve them. So as to possibly provide information to someone encountering the same or a similar problem. I love how you're all so quick to say how your way is the latest and greatest, and how much better it is than the next guys. Everyone here is so stuck in their own ways. The only reason I'm here is to share and exchange information that can potentially benefit what I'm doing. Maybe if you stepped back and humbled yourself a little bit, take a page out of someone's book... or fuck take a few pages that could possibly improve the way your garden functions you might be surprised with the results you're able to get.
P.S.
Thanks to you fine ladies and gents that haven't indulged in the theme of personal attacks that has become so prevalent on this thread, and the forum in general; it actually makes me want to continue my membership and keep posting contrary to most of the bullshit posted on here.
I haven't gotten the opportunity to flower in it yet, but that time will come my friend just waiting on my flowering light. Your runoff should be a little lower than what it started when passing through the soil as it will pick up nutrients among other things. Mine is normally tinted a light yellowish brown, and when it's lighter and almost clear is when I start adding nutes, and obviously you can check other things ppm, if you have a soil meter (I don't know how popular those are, for users of soil... I don't have one, but I've seen them for fairly cheap). But ultimately I would wait until the plant or the soil shows signs of needing it, if you catch it right in the beginning before the problem is serious it won't be a problem, the plants could actually benefit from a little (a LITTLE) added stress.
P.S.
Thanks to you fine ladies and gents that haven't indulged in the theme of personal attacks that has become so prevalent on this thread, and the forum in general; it actually makes me want to continue my membership and keep posting contrary to most of the bullshit posted on here.
I wonder if they are made in different locations? For me, sourcing lime locally is no problem, oyster shell just not exist locally and would have to be shipped, and no way am I going to spend $25 shipping a $5 product. It would seem that it would be cheaper for FF to use the same thing for both, than 2 different pH buffers. 5 tons of either would be cheaper than 2 1/2 tons of each.
Ok, sorry for the mis-quote, but apparently, sometimes FFOF does need additional lime or oyster shell or whatever. Could be bad batching on their part, could be the strain of cannabis sucking all the Ca out. IDK, I just know I've seen this problem pop up more than a few times with FF and the Promix with added lime and just about all peat based bagged mixes.
For the guys like you that have no problems with it, great. For the ones that do, the answer is simple and easy, lime, either dolomite, calcitic, or oyster shell, or something else along those lines, that will adjust the pH and get some cal/mag in there.
Wet
Next time, unless you can find some of that 'liquid lime', but I have no experience with it.
Powdered takes at least a couple of weeks to start working, so I doubt it would do anything for that plant.
Try it for the next grow though.
Wet
Bublonichronic
Well-Known Member
i know this isnt proof or anything at all, just my outdoor veggie garden, but i have used the same soil for 2 season, this will be the third....all i do is break up the root systems with a shovel and add some mexican bat guano and just get back to growing...havent had any pH problems(even tho i have been meaning to put some lime in there), and its been raining alot (acidicy rain i believe) and i water with my tap at like 7.5-8, so the buffers are still doin their job it seems...so i just cant really understand how a MJ plant cant get a couple months outa fresh soil...i know water differs from place to place...but how many cities water is that terrible?
edit: forgot pics, ahha
edit: forgot pics, ahha
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Nullis
Moderator
They call it Ocean Forest. Good things from Earth and Sea. I mentioned that in a previous post, are you catching on yet as to why they might use oyster shell? A more specific reason is likely that oyster shell is an abundant industry by-product. How long a liming agent will last depends on a few factors including the particle size and CEC of the medium. Larger chunk oyster or egg shell or even pelletized dolomite is going to last longer, but take longer to start working. Powdered oyster/eggshell will go to work much quicker, and especially micronized dolomite\calcitic limestone.
For the fifth time oyster shell is just calcium carbonate (CaCO3) which is calcitic lime. Dolomite is calcium magnesium carbonate - CaMg(CO3)2. Lime is not at all efficient at lowering pH. Lime does not lower pH. Lime will never, ever lower pH.
Also, I am not so sure that it takes any more than a few days for micronized lime to affect pH, if not immediately upon becoming moistened. I wouldn't doubt if eggshell you simply hit with a coffee grinder took a couple weeks to start working, though.
Bublonichronic
Well-Known Member
apparently oyster shells can do both, raise and lower, but obviously more effective at raising, thats a point for OShells in my book....and from what iv read when using oyster shells in a aquarium u only need to change them out every couple months, thats with weekly water changes...so if they last that long completely submerged in water...how long could they last in a soil?!?!? RIU RIU
Bublonichronic
Well-Known Member
EARTH and sea, they can use both if they want lil bro, ahha
max316420
Well-Known Member
WOW this thread is actually amusing lol I asked a question to find out the answer and MUCH RESPECT to WETDOG and others that had something positive to say... I firmly believe that this is my problem and gonna be adding lime from now on... So WETDOG say im 3-4 weeks from planting new clones, should I mix my lime in my promix now and wet it or should I wait til I'm about to use it to wet it? I usually veg for 2-3 weeks.. Final thoughts, I know a couple things for sure, MY PH OF MY PROMIX THAT IS BEING USED IN FLOWING NOW IS 5.3, MY LADIES ARE SHOWING COMPLETE SIGNS OF MAG LOCKOUT AND I'VE TRIED EVERYTHING ELSE UNDER THE SUN TO FIX THIS PROBLEM WITHOUT LUCK. Now I am talking about promix and not FFOF, Yes OF does have it in it and YES promix has some in it BUT like wetdog said there probably just isnt enough..
max316420
Well-Known Member
RE: What Nullis mentioned, that micronized lime might start to work immediately. IDK to be honest. My mix is organic and gets wetted and cooked for a month or so, so ........
I usually say the 2 weeks thing for people who didn't add lime to the mix and are top dressing with it. The lime, being ground up rock, doesn't really dissolve in water, and needs pretty much, to be in contact with what it's buffering, the peat in the mix. It takes that long to work its way down into the container, more or less. I've gotten reply's like "I added the lime 6 hours ago and my pH is still x.x, should I add more"? That got me to say, wait 2 weeks and check. LOL
Even if you left it dry, promix needs to be well wetted before use anyway. Dry peat is really hard to get wet the first time. I usually start wetting it down a day or 2 before I'm going to transplant. Even the already moistened 'cooking' stuff.
LOL, this is tough to answer! I've been doing this for 30+ years and it's gotten to be more of a *feel* thing, than something I can give directions for.
Try some both ways. What works best for you will become apparent pretty quick. That's the best way I can explain it.
Wet
I usually say the 2 weeks thing for people who didn't add lime to the mix and are top dressing with it. The lime, being ground up rock, doesn't really dissolve in water, and needs pretty much, to be in contact with what it's buffering, the peat in the mix. It takes that long to work its way down into the container, more or less. I've gotten reply's like "I added the lime 6 hours ago and my pH is still x.x, should I add more"? That got me to say, wait 2 weeks and check. LOL
Even if you left it dry, promix needs to be well wetted before use anyway. Dry peat is really hard to get wet the first time. I usually start wetting it down a day or 2 before I'm going to transplant. Even the already moistened 'cooking' stuff.
LOL, this is tough to answer! I've been doing this for 30+ years and it's gotten to be more of a *feel* thing, than something I can give directions for.
Try some both ways. What works best for you will become apparent pretty quick. That's the best way I can explain it.
Wet