Good ole' trial & error... On the error side again; What went wrong with this soil batch?

Ecompost said:

or environmental/ biological conditions, and how they can limit micros, helping them leach or bind in to non available states, or otherwise restrict access where we dont have deficiency in stores

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I agree... Mn was my biggest problem.
Manganese deficiency
The availability of Mn in soil is strongly related to soil pH. Soils with higher pH have lower Mn availability than soils with lower pH. Mn deficiency is therefore more likely to be a problem on alkaline soils. However, responses to Mn have also been recorded on impoverished, acid to neutral sandy soils.
The availability of Mn is also strongly affected by seasonal conditions and the availability is lowest during a dry spring. Transient Mn deficiency may also appear during cold, wet conditions but affected plants are often seen to recover following rains in spring when soil temperatures are high.

MustangStudFarm said:

It has became very obvious that a lot of people are suffering from a micro def but don't think that is what the problem is. I didn't think much of my micro problem until last harvest, it was hell but it opened my eyes! Mn and Zn def is devastating. I can put pics to the soil test, but some people still want to doubt... Alright, I'm off to play some golf now...
View attachment 4182551

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it is actually is a little low so dont listen to neigh say if you know this. Most plants require an MN ppm in the range of 0.5-5

hope you had a good round and relaxing time at the course

Ecompost said:

and so the future has caught up with the under educated and those chemists are laughing now that we ever brought in to their bullshit as they risk to starve alongside us.
United fruit are to blame for the state of bananas imo, even if this doesnt solve the problem, its good to know ones enemy.
Tough luck, but not dissimilar to Olive plantations here and around the world where Xyella is wrecking livelihoods uncontrolled. We have ignored the superior intellect of our natural partners, and now they are showing us the true reality of epigenetic organisms and so who really holds the key to life and death.
I suspect those ridiculing evolution are sitting quietly now?

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damn right, nothing can stop this root rot fungal infection, i tried every method i can find in the last 17yrs, on various mycorrhiza/trichoderma treatments alone ive spent at least $20,000, yet once a plant is infected its off to plant heaven for those poor souls

MustangStudFarm said:

It has became very obvious that a lot of people are suffering from a micro def but don't think that is what the problem is. I didn't think much of my micro problem until last harvest, it was hell but it opened my eyes! Mn and Zn def is devastating. I can put pics to the soil test, but some people still want to doubt... Alright, I'm off to play some golf now...
View attachment 4182551

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can I just ask what was the soil test type? it certainty makes a difference depending on how you apply a test, via what method i mean. Just look at the measured levels of calcium via a mehlich or Bray over an AA, as a golfer you might be interested to learn the PGA no routninely use AA

greencropper said:

damn right, nothing can stop this root rot fungal infection, i tried every method i can find in the last 17yrs, on various mycorrhiza/trichoderma treatments alone ive spent at least $20,000, yet once a plant is infected its off to plant heaven for those poor souls

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man that is super sad. Just as the fungus has learned to manage all of our controls to date, i am sure we will find a fungus, or practice to help us restore balance. trouble is these tings dont often happen on human time scales. I really hope in your case this isnt reality.
In todays capitalist world, I see investors arent too concerned by rarity, otherwise the growth on the S&P would be related to economic activity and not free money buy backs stimulated by QE

MustangStudFarm said:

I agree... Mn was my biggest problem along with Zn.
Manganese deficiency
The availability of Mn in soil is strongly related to soil pH. Soils with higher pH have lower Mn availability than soils with lower pH. Mn deficiency is therefore more likely to be a problem on alkaline soils. However, responses to Mn have also been recorded on impoverished, acid to neutral sandy soils.
The availability of Mn is also strongly affected by seasonal conditions and the availability is lowest during a dry spring. Transient Mn deficiency may also appear during cold, wet conditions but affected plants are often seen to recover following rains in spring when soil temperatures are high.

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i saw you test results buddy. Australia is gonna get it this year i think sadly. No rain means problems, its the same here

Ecompost said:

man that is super sad. Just as the fungus has learned to manage all of our controls to date, i am sure we will find a fungus, or practice to help us restore balance. trouble is these tings dont often happen on human time scales. I really hope in your case this isnt reality.
In todays capitalist world, I see investors arent too concerned by rarity, otherwise the growth on the S&P would be related to economic activity and not free money buy backs stimulated by QE

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i think the only way i will ever be able to grow weed in the ground again is to go to another property, yet im stoked i can still grow here in pots as long as they are off the ground, i can keep my personal stash going without having to buy so thats a blessing

Ecompost said:

can I just ask what was the soil test type? it certainty makes a difference depending on how you apply a test, via what method i mean. Just look at the measured levels of calcium via a mehlich or Bray over an AA, as a golfer you might be interested to learn the PGA no routninely use AA

Click to expand...

I started off with Logan Labs and Spectrum Analytic and I was getting the Mehlich 3 and Saturated paste test. The tests were hard to read and it is easy to over look things like nutrient lock-out, and the Mehlich 3 test does not account for lock-out. After 2yrs of being in a slump, I decided to change testing services to "Soil Savvy". I listened to an interview on KIS Organics and the creator of the test explained how it was different from the other tests, it accounts for nutrient lock-out and makes it very easy to read.
Spectrum Analytic



Here is rabbit manure that was aged for 2yrs. I always had problems using it, so I kept letting it sit longer. If I do this again, I am going to use LOADS of rock dust and kelp. I did mix oak leaves with this compost, but I keep having the reoccurring problem. I have always been fighting that Mn def.
Soil Savvy



I got tired of having shitty harvests, so I bought soil from "Build-A-Soil" and that shit wasn't any better! Keep in mind, the Mehlich 3 test does not show nutrient lock-out.

MustangStudFarm said:

I started off with Logan Labs and Spectrum Analytic and I was getting the Mehlich 3 and Saturated paste test. The tests were hard to read and it is easy to over look things like nutrient lock-out, and the Mehlich 3 test does not account for lock-out. After 2yrs of being in a slump, I decided to change testing services to "Soil Savvy". I listened to an interview on KIS Organics and the creator of the test explained how it was different from the other tests, it accounts for nutrient lock-out and makes it very easy to read.
Spectrum Analytic
View attachment 4182806


Here is rabbit manure that was aged for 2yrs. I always had problems using it, so I kept letting it sit longer. If I do this again, I am going to use LOADS of rock dust and kelp. I did mix oak leaves with this compost, but I keep having the reoccurring problem. I have always been fighting that Mn def.
Soil Savvy
View attachment 4182808


I got tired of having shitty harvests, so I bought soil from "Build-A-Soil" and that shit wasn't any better! Keep in mind, the Mehlich 3 test does not show nutrient lock-out. View attachment 4182809

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I almost responded to you a few times and decided to stay out of it.
My thought last week was similar to what you are stating above where you mention trying a different soil.

1st. Thank you for your service.
2nd. I was thinking last week why not get a bag of fox farm ocean forest or something similar that is tried and true and see what your results are.

Kushash said:

2nd. I was thinking last week why not get a bag of fox farm ocean forest or something similar that is tried and true and see what your results are.

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I did this back in Christmas of 2016. I started off with FFOF and it was no better than what I was working with. Then, I tried Build-A-Soil and I spent $1K on 400gallons of soil. The same soil that I shown in the test above. Bag soil is no better than what a person can make in their backyard. Actually, if you look at the aluminum levels from the BAS were very high. So, the compost that I was making was better!

Seriously, compare the Al levels from the last 2 tests that I shown.

MustangStudFarm said:

I started off with Logan Labs and Spectrum Analytic and I was getting the Mehlich 3 and Saturated paste test. The tests were hard to read and it is easy to over look things like nutrient lock-out, and the Mehlich 3 test does not account for lock-out. After 2yrs of being in a slump, I decided to change testing services to "Soil Savvy". I listened to an interview on KIS Organics and the creator of the test explained how it was different from the other tests, it accounts for nutrient lock-out and makes it very easy to read.
Spectrum Analytic
View attachment 4182806


Here is rabbit manure that was aged for 2yrs. I always had problems using it, so I kept letting it sit longer. If I do this again, I am going to use LOADS of rock dust and kelp. I did mix oak leaves with this compost, but I keep having the reoccurring problem. I have always been fighting that Mn def.
Soil Savvy
View attachment 4182808


I got tired of having shitty harvests, so I bought soil from "Build-A-Soil" and that shit wasn't any better! Keep in mind, the Mehlich 3 test does not show nutrient lock-out. View attachment 4182809

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thanks for the reply.
have you got any access to Mussels? We fermented a bunch of green lipped mussels to get a higher profile of micros, esp Mn, Zn, B etc, this we added to a product we call Bio Veg which I use with a humic acid mostly as a foliar, but also as a drench for squash, cucumbers etc, this is a super liquid add and quickly fills in any gaps.
https://betterorganix.com/shop/bio-veg/

I think the adds you mention will help, esp the Kelp, preferably as a meal not a liquid, but even a light liquid feed once a week is better than nothing.
We have now gotten to a point where we add direct Manganese Sulfate (32%), this is added to our permanent beds ahead of planting alongside other adds @ prep stage since I find this easier to manage overall, esp since we dont suffer a lack of many other micros. It is allowed as an Organic amendment here anyway, but for sure this has been the most reliable method to keep levels high where we consistently suffer annual drought and excessive soil temps, high UV and low RH% and a swingy pH related.
We also add Solubon to boost Boron levels which we have found also really suffer here, alongside K which needs near constant attention, eg 4-8 days.
We have to keep an eye on moisture levels and so pH for sure here, but I also do regular CO2 Burst rate tests to ensure microbial action isnt the missing link before i leap in to the locker for a sack of whatever

MustangStudFarm said:

Seriously, compare the Al levels from the last 2 tests that I shown.

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I honestly think people worry too much about Al. Its so abundant around the globe and has been forever, that plants themselves have mechanisms to reduce uptake, but of course if we might get to a lower overall, this can only help.
The soil you make will be more resonant than anything you might buy. You could add carrot tops with your leaf mold and see if this helps boost Mn in your compost

Ecompost said:

We have now gotten to a point where we add direct Manganese Sulfate (32%)

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That is what I am doing now. I am hoping that it will just be a 1 time thing until the other things have time to break down like the kelp and rock dusts. I am hoping that it is a short term solution. I'm using Mn sulfate, Zn sulfate, and a little Cu sulfate. Also, I am going to start growing companion plants like comfrey for compost.

Ecompost said:

we consistently suffer annual drought and excessive soil temps, high UV and low RH% and a swingy pH related.

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I'm familiar with that lol...

MustangStudFarm said:

That is what I am doing now. I am hoping that it will just be a 1 time thing until the other things have time to break down like the kelp and rock dusts. I am hoping that it is a short term solution. I'm using Mn sulfate, Zn sulfate, and a little Cu sulfate. Also, I am going to start growing companion plants like comfrey for compost.

I'm familiar with that lol...

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As a rule buddy we amend about every 3 years, but I dont use Cu, toxicity of the soil being the reason and the related fungal damage which i found really harms the outcomes of my plants.
i do use a bit of Sulfato to help prevent a few bugs which come every year and bring gifts of pathogenic bacteria which is then followed by pathogenic fungus, but I am again careful as I might be to avoid over spray, this is after all also a non selective anti fungicide.

If you grow Comfrey, I urge you to select the Bocking14 only. Unless you want it to self seed. By the way, it needs lots of water to get established in our sort of environments. I do also use Borage, Phacelia, Nettles, Fescue and we also use a 2&4 year soil builder cover which has around 17 different plant types. I found the longer I rest, the less Mn etc I need to add, but of course its not practical everywhere when you need to make a living from limited space.

MustangStudFarm said:

I did this back in Christmas of 2016. I started off with FFOF and it was no better than what I was working with. Then, I tried Build-A-Soil and I spent $1K on 400gallons of soil. The same soil that I shown in the test above. Bag soil is no better than what a person can make in their backyard. Actually, if you look at the aluminum levels from the BAS were very high. So, the compost that I was making was better!

Click to expand...

Maybe the compost was better than the FFOF.
IMO if you are having problems with both soils and it's been going on this long the problem is less likely to be the soil and more likely that something about your grow is not dialed in.
That is why I suggested the FFOF.
With FFOF and you creating a thread of your grow from seed, I could get some guys who are experienced with FFOF to follow your grow and see if it is dialed in.
At the same time you can continue to work with others on your build a soil.
Even do side by sides.
I'm pretty sure doing a thread of a grow is the way to go.
If your not up for it. No Problem.
The offer will be there in the future if you don't get things resolved and you change your mind.
I'll throw up a some FFOF grows from a few years back, just to show I can grow, I have a thousand pics.

Kushash said:

Maybe the compost was better than the FFOF.
IMO if you are having problems with both soils and it's been going on this long the problem is less likely to be the soil and more likely that something about your grow is not dialed in.
That is why I suggested the FFOF.
With FFOF and you creating a thread of your grow from seed, I could get some guys who are experienced with FFOF to follow your grow and see if it is dialed in.
At the same time you can continue to work with others on your build a soil.
Even do side by sides.
I'm pretty sure doing a thread of a grow is the way to go.
If your not up for it. No Problem.
The offer will be there in the future if you don't get things resolved and you change your mind.
I'll throw up a some FFOF grows from a few years back, just to show I can grow, I have a thousand pics.

Whatever you do.
Good Luck!
​

View attachment 4183907
View attachment 4183899 View attachment 4183900 View attachment 4183901 View attachment 4183903 View attachment 4183904

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Nice offer but I think its not required anyway, his problem is a sincere lack of soil Mn, this has nothing to do with being dialed in, and everything to do with an element not being there in sufficient quantity in his system, probably as a consequence of environmental stress he cant control.
No one is gonna tell him more than he already knows I think. He is already doing whats needed to address the situation.
The facts as I read it where that he tried to address the shortfall using various recommended material inputs. Because he is a well practiced grower, he gave these solutions time to prove themselves or not.
Having tried lots of options, he has settled on whats needed, this he has explained.

For people familiar with blistering temps, long hard drought, extremely dry RH%, and the variance of soil tests, his posts will be recognizable to many i have no doubt

Ecompost said:

Nice offer but I think its not required anyway, his problem is a sincere lack of soil Mn, this has nothing to do with being dialed in, and everything to do with an element not being there in sufficient quantity in his system, probably as a consequence of environmental stress he cant control.
No one is gonna tell him more than he already knows I think. He is already doing whats needed to address the situation.
The facts as I read it where that he tried to address the shortfall using various recommended material inputs. Because he is a well practiced grower, he gave these solutions time to prove themselves or not.
Having tried lots of options, he has settled on whats needed, this he has explained.

For people familiar with blistering temps, long hard drought, extremely dry RH%, and the variance of soil tests, his posts will be recognizable to many i have no doubt

Click to expand...

He can speak for himself, he's not shy.
Whatever he decides is fine with me.
I don't understand know how he could have ran into a similar problem with FFOF if the soil is the problem.
Can you explain that?
Doesn't matter if he accepts or not. Maybe I'll end up in the compost like Wet Dog and OPfarmer for a while. That's OK, my offer will remain.
I can tell you are smart but I'm not to sure you are taking him down the road he needs to take.
Just my 2c. I think he needs to hear it.
When I said I thanked him for his service I meant it, so I'm going to say what I think he should here and be there later even if I get an earful.
Let's remember this is Newgrower2011's thread.
Other opinions are welcome!

Ecompost said:

Nice offer but I think its not required anyway, his problem is a sincere lack of soil Mn, this has nothing to do with being dialed in, and everything to do with an element not being there in sufficient quantity in his system, probably as a consequence of environmental stress he cant control.
No one is gonna tell him more than he already knows I think. He is already doing whats needed to address the situation.
The facts as I read it where that he tried to address the shortfall using various recommended material inputs. Because he is a well practiced grower, he gave these solutions time to prove themselves or not.
Having tried lots of options, he has settled on whats needed, this he has explained.

For people familiar with blistering temps, long hard drought, extremely dry RH%, and the variance of soil tests, his posts will be recognizable to many i have no doubt

Click to expand...

I thought he grew indoors, where the environment CAN be controlled.

Kushash said:

He can speak for himself, he's not shy.
Whatever he decides is fine with me.
I don't understand know how he could have ran into a similar problem with FFOF if the soil is the problem.
Can you explain that?
Doesn't matter if he accepts or not. Maybe I'll end up in the compost like Wet Dog and OPfarmer for a while. That's OK, my offer will remain.
I can tell you are smart but I'm not to sure you are taking him down the road he needs to take.
Just my 2c. I think he needs to hear it.
When I said I thanked him for his service I meant it, so I'm going to say what I think he should here and be there later even if I get an earful.
Let's remember this is Newgrower2011's thread.
Other opinions are welcome!

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yes I can, its environmental. Where soil or even compost is subjected to extremes, it behaves the same. EG excessive UV and drying causes problems with Mn no matter what you use as substrate. pH fluctuations cause problems with Mn. pH swings are tied to extremes of weather as well as they are over handed growers.

This is why I said do a CO2 burst rate test. This will establish the health of his microbial communities and ergo offer some insight in to why he might be leaching or losing access to micros.
It is the respiration of roots and microbes, combined with water that etch micro elements from soils and or organic matter.
And I wasnt taking him, he already left on his own. I was offering him some support against people that either arent listening to what he says, or are being obnoxious in not understanding what he is saying but offering him advice anyway, advice he has already taken, but that has already failed to deliver