Gun control is coming

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
After the war they disbanded the army.
Then they reinstituted it and General Washington was president at the time, they had a navy I believe. The states used to appoint senators back then too and they were not elected by property owning white men.

USS Massachusetts
Created by Congress in April 1798, the Department of the Navy has its earliest roots in the Continental navy formed in 1775 by General George Washington to defend the American colonies from British attack.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Hey Fogdog,I think it all is a combo of the Wlid West mentality and a deep seated distrust of Govt. and "being ready" for govt.repression of freedom,that's my take and I'm certainly not a social/historical guru by any means.Banning AR-15's and the like for civilian use would not stop mass shootings and even if it were done the existing #'s of these guns is off the charts,but it'd be a start,and from there generous buybacks could get more off the street. The tumbling and fragmentation of the bullet is atrocious for surgeons compared to wounds from a bullet that exits straight thru the body.They are simply sinister in the damage they do and are strictly made for war to cause horrific wounds and turn a 3hr.surgery into a 15hr. surgery plus all the infection potential trying to remove shards of the fragged bullet.A shot gun is better suited for hitting a home intruder,a rifle is better for hunting and a pistol for carry and personal protection,assault rifles on the other hand are simply unnecessary and if their "fun" to fire at the range too bad,that argument doesn't fly.
See my post above. Nobody is seriously talking about banning AR-15s, A few rational and sane changes can save lives. That's the objective. Reduce the harm guns are doing.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
from memory,
A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Militia simple meant all free men of draftable age. It was a demographic criterion, so the military is never mentioned or invoked.

Also, well-regulated meant something other than it means today.
I don't buy that last line.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
See my post above. Nobody is seriously talking about banning AR-15s, A few rational and sane changes can save lives. That's the objective. Reduce the harm guns are doing.
Joe is as I recall, along with other reforms, whatever happens will be incremental until 24 and much will depend on the results of that election. Big majorities can lead to big changes and a mandate. If the republicans are divided by Trump and other issues along with a plethora of court cases, it can happen. If they lose just 10% of their base nationally it will be a disaster for them and the salvation of the nation.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
where did you get that absurdity? I'm curious who is pushing that narrative and how they justify it.
Something I read on the topic long ago. If you have a historical reference saying otherwise, I’ll pay attention.

What I don’t understand is why the pushback. The language is pushing a quarter-millennium in age, and these niceties don’t affect the current issues surrounding gun law.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Something I read on the topic long ago. If you have a historical reference saying otherwise, I’ll pay attention.

What I don’t understand is why the pushback. The language is pushing a quarter-millennium in age, and these niceties don’t affect the current issues surrounding gun law.
Historically speaking, the people who wrote the 2nd A spoke English, which is the same language I speak. The meaning of the words "well" and "regulated" have not changed. The courts sometimes has special meanings to words but they didn't even exist under the constitution until after the 2A was written.

So, either stop abusing reason and logic or provide justification to what seems absurd to me, which is "well regulated" meant something different two hundred years ago.

You demand links from others. Turnabout, dude.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Historically speaking, the people who wrote the 2nd A spoke English, which is the same language I speak. The meaning of the words "well" and "regulated" have not changed. The courts sometimes has special meanings to words but they didn't even exist under the constitution until after the 2A was written.

So, either stop abusing reason and logic or provide justification to what seems absurd to me, which is "well regulated" meant something different two hundred years ago.

You demand links from others. Turnabout, dude.
A clock that kept good time was well-regulated, as was a gun with correctly-adjusted sights. I’m sorry it seems absurd to you, but I’m not the one abusing reason in this instance. Your hostility to the idea mystifies me, and at day’s end our opinions do not matter.

 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
A clock that kept good time was well-regulated, as was a gun with correctly-adjusted sights. I’m sorry it seems absurd to you, but I’m not the one abusing reason in this instance. Your hostility to the idea mystifies me, and at day’s end our opinions do not matter.

I think the ultimate question asked of the SCOTUS will be the definition of "arms" and the same freedom for guns would apply to artillery, rockets and bombs all in their modern incarnations. If open carry of an AR15 or any gun is the legal, then people should be able to be armed with swords too, since they were common arms at the time of the 2nds writing. Define arms according to the 17th century dictionary, consult Dr. Johnson I think.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
I think the ultimate question asked of the SCOTUS will be the definition of "arms" and the same freedom for guns would apply to artillery, rockets and bombs all in their modern incarnations. If open carry of an AR15 or any gun is the legal, then people should be able to be armed with swords too, since they were common arms at the time of the 2nds writing. Define arms according to the 17th century dictionary, consult Dr. Johnson I think.
My bottom-line argument is that 21st-century law should not be beholden to 18th-century semantics. That’s as failed a protocol as inerrant-Bible reasoning.
 

HGCC

Well-Known Member
Interpreting the words "well regulated" written back then using modern understanding seems not right.

*Logic jump to make a joke....

After they wrote the constitution, they spent the next 150 years with medicine being "well regulated" as to whether you should drink your mercury out of a glass made of lead or radium. Of course by then they realized witches didn't float so you know, the document kept up with the changing times.

Edit: lol man I didn't read to the end, didn't see fogs and canna talking about it.

While the definitions are the same, I do think interpretation and understanding of the subject now is different than then. I wonder if anything else would have been described as "well regulated" back then that we could look at now for insight.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
A clock that kept good time was well-regulated, as was a gun with correctly-adjusted sights. I’m sorry it seems absurd to you, but I’m not the one abusing reason in this instance. Your hostility to the idea mystifies me, and at day’s end our opinions do not matter.

Your interpretation does not follow the context of the sentence in the 2A. Like a clock or a gunsight? "A well calibrated militia"? Even so, that interpretation does not mean unregulated.

My hostility to that absurdity stems from how originalists in the Republican Party are insisting on using that kind of argument to justify inaction on the storm of mass shootings and gun homicides we are experiencing every day in today's USA. SCOTUS CHOSE to overlook those words to favor "shall not be infringed".
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
My bottom-line argument is that 21st-century law should not be beholden to 18th-century semantics. That’s as failed a protocol as inerrant-Bible reasoning.
Well, it is the kind of thing the SCOTUS deals with, and they do consult ancient law as Alito recently did and archaic definitions too, since the original intent of the founders is important to some of them, but milage may vary depending on the judge. Conservative judges tend to favor original intent, while more liberal ones consider the constitution a living document and intrepid it that way, considering the many social and political changes that have occurred since then including issues of social justice. Conservative justices like conservative Christians tend to be literal in their interpretation of their scriptures.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Your interpretation does not follow the context of the sentence in the 2A. Like a clock or a gunsight? "A well calibrated militia"? Even so, that interpretation does not mean unregulated.

My hostility to that absurdity stems from how originalists in the Republican Party are insisting on using that kind of argument to justify inaction on the storm of mass shootings and gun homicides we are experiencing every day in today's USA. SCOTUS CHOSE to overlook those words to favor "shall not be infringed".
I don’t hold with the originalists. I certainly don’t hold with the idea that society then dictates to society now.

Even so, using the dictionary of the times, well-regulated meant “competent, practiced” perhaps more than “well-administered”. Imo both contributed.

You know perfectly well that I’ve converted to a facts-based, even epidemiological view of the effect of guns in American society. I sometimes wonder if you wrestle with me over these matters using me as a proxy for the not-converted.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
I don’t hold with the originalists. I certainly don’t hold with the idea that society then dictates to society now.

Even so, using the dictionary of the times, well-regulated meant “competent, practiced” perhaps more than “well-administered”. Imo both contributed.

You know perfectly well that I’ve converted to a facts-based, even epidemiological view of the effect of guns in American society. I sometimes wonder if you wrestle with me over these matters using me as a proxy for the not-converted.
They were well regulated enough for Washington to vaccinate them, and if you thought the covid vaccine was unsafe! :lol:
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
I don’t hold with the originalists. I certainly don’t hold with the idea that society then dictates to society now.

Even so, using the dictionary of the times, well-regulated meant “competent, practiced” perhaps more than “well-administered”. Imo both contributed.

You know perfectly well that I’ve converted to a facts-based, even epidemiological view of the effect of guns in American society. I sometimes wonder if you wrestle with me over these matters using me as a proxy for the not-converted.
It doesn't sound like the meaning has changed to me, but whatever.

Perhaps I over reacted. I will try to be well regulated the next time I see that line of reasoning.
 

xtsho

Well-Known Member
Measure 114 Is not dead in the courts, it's stalled by a hick judge in a hick county. He's doing what illiberal conservatives always do when the majority has spoken, he's slowed it down but eventually has to issue a final ruling so that it can move to the higher courts.

Have you even read what's in that bill? Probably not. There is nothing in that bill that is unconstitutional. It does not prevent a coward from buying a gun to satisfy their craven fear. It simply calls for a permit to buy a gun. In order to get the permit, the prospective buyer would need to have completed a gun safety class within the past five years. It imposes a limit to the number of rounds in a cartridge to 10 but that only affects sales, not ones already in a gun owner's possession. It also closes the gun show loophole and other loopholes that enable people who are not legally allowed a gun to buy them without the background check.

The judge in Harney county has ruled that those reasonable and sane regulations would prevent a person who is not a convict from owning a gun. He knows his ruling will be overturned, which is why he tied it up in his hick county.

So, good on the state legislature for pushing this measure forward. And cry me a fucking river over the cost of the permit to buy a gun. The permit is good for five years.
YAWN...


Apparently you don't know what a Court is. It can be one Judge presiding over the Court.

Stalled and DOA.
 
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