Has DNA Genetics Seeds Stopped Making Regular Seeds?

I've noticed over the last year or so that DNA Genetics Seeds has stopped offering any regular seeds for many of their major strains. I remember a few years ago buying several Cataract Kush regular seeds (Amazing plant/strain btw).

I understand they make more money on continuously selling feminized seeds to customers (before anyone chimes in about that).

I've been wanting to try Cataract Kush again, along with LA Confidential (one of CK's parent strains), but neither have been offered as regular seeds on Attitude Seedbank, Single Seed Centre, or Castle Seeds for almost a year.

Most all of DNA's other strains also seem to be only feminized seeds.

Does anyone have any insight on this, because I'd really like to know if DNA has moved to carrying strictly feminized seeds?

Thanks in advance.

I recently purchased some DNA 91 Krypt from their limited line.
Those were regs. I noticed a few others were as well.
I think they had Grape LA, and Hitman Og regs.
Those were in the limited line though, so I don't know how many packs they had.

Well that's good to see they have some of their newer strains in regular.

Just wish they would do the same for their classic, proven strains.

it all depends really. the whole LA line was feminized. my question is when they offer regular and feminized of the same strain whats the deal? the regular is F1-4? and the feminized is s-1 or more? if so what pheno did they self? why is it considered the same strain as the regulars?

pretty much every company is doing this and frankly I'm a little blown away. whats the story? anyone ever answered this question?

HGK420 said:

it all depends really. the whole LA line was feminized. my question is when they offer regular and feminized of the same strain whats the deal? the regular is F1-4? and the feminized is s-1 or more? if so what pheno did they self? why is it considered the same strain as the regulars?

pretty much every company is doing this and frankly I'm a little blown away. whats the story? anyone ever answered this question?

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This is just my take on it but I started noticing that a year or two ago...with many ceed companies. I think its because they dont want you and I making F2s or crosses ETC....Thats my thought. When I noticed that they were doing that I went on a major shopping spree for regular ceeds...I mean major. I had a feeling that it was coming. Thats just my feeling about it....

by taking males off the market it makes it easier for them to control what is out there.

To answer the original question, DNA Genetics still offers regulars, albeit in limited runs.

Thecouchlock said:

by taking males off the market it makes it easier for them to control what is out there.

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I think making it harder for little guys to make their own beans at home is part of this, but its not the entire story.

Ultimately, breeders respond to what the market demands. If the market demanded only regs, that's what breeders would provide. There are still plenty of breeders ones who provide both regs and fems, or even just regs, and I don't think they're ever going to entirely go away.

The fact is, for many lines demand for fem ceeds is higher than regs. Whether or not this "should" be the case is debatable, but the reality is that many buyers only want fem ceeds (or even fem auto), especially in Europe. These are people who just want to drop one bean in the ground, walk away, and come back three months later to chop. If your breeding space is limited (which is the case for everyone) and you're trying to limit se-ed production runs, then from a business perspective, it makes sense to do fem only. In other words, if you have to choose between fem and non fem, it makes more sense to run fems.

As a pure business matter, fem ceeds also typically sell for twice the price as regulars. But from a breeder WORK perspective the extra cost and labor necessary to make fem ceeds vs regular ones is absolutely minimal. The only extra cost is a few bucks worth of reversal chemical, and the only extra work is a little bit of spraying to reverse the "father"/mother plant. Making fem ceeds doesn't really take any longer than regs, it doesn't take any more space, and it doesn't alter the overall ceed yield per plant. It also doesn't require maintenance of male "father" plants, or even (depending on how the breeding is ultimately done) selection of individual males, which are two more potential advantages. In effect, breeders can potentially double their profit margin from a ceed run running fems vs regulars. IMO, this is the single biggest reason breeders like fems. If these are lines that typically sell out, then there is really NO reason for the breeders to run regs!

Lastly, its really quite easy for a "breeder" to start with famous "clone only" lines, then reverse one to create S1 or F1 offspring, which they then hype by name and sell at a premium. IMO, this isn't really "breeding" but instead just "crossing" or simple "ceed-making". Regardless of whether or not people "should" be buying these things, the market reality is that plenty of people are attracted by the names and do buy them, and there are a number of "breeders" who do a brisk trade in these kinds of lines. Since all ceeds created this way are the product of a reversal step with no male plants, all these beans end up feminized . . .no use of males means no possibility for male offspring. So this is basically a case of lazy breeding practice, leading to all feminized lines.

The "answer" to these practices is simple. . .if you want regs, take your business to breeders who offer them. If you want regs of a particular line, then contact the breeder in question and ask for them. That is why, for example, DNA put out regs of Kosher Kush in limited run. . .they perceived a demand for these, so they met it. Of course not every breeder will respond this way, but I think some will.

DNA have talked about this many times in interviews. There belief is the market for fem seeds would eventually decline and reg's would come back in demand. They also believe regular seeds should cost more then fem's. They are working on reg's for there strains but some will never be able to have true males as there parent(OG18,OG,SD,Kosher,ect..) are 2 females. They have messed up in the past and brought out strains in reg's seed like sour diesel but messed it up by using Sour Cream as the male and the results are not Sour Diesel, we all make mistakes and they seem to have learned not to do that anymore.

Now on the feminized vs regular debate...There is NO difference in females made by chemical then a natural occuring female! They both have the same genetic makeup chromosome wise, one was just man-made to be female. Its easier to take 2 females that you have smoke tested and cross them together with a goal in mind to create something new then to take a tested female and cross to a male that has never been smoked. When's the last time you smoked some male bud....

booms111 said:

DNA have talked about this many times in interviews. There belief is the market for fem seeds would eventually decline and reg's would come back in demand.

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This is interesting. Thanks for posting this.

Clearly there is SOME demand for regular ceeds; just more (in general) for feminized. I tend to think that with legalization coming (slowly) growers won't have to hide their grows so much, allowing more indoor and outdoor space for cultivation. With that there will be more ability to do gender selection, more interest in home breeding, and more interest in regular beans, just as DNA says.

They also believe regular seeds should cost more then fem's.

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This I don't get. Did they explain what the reasoning is here?

IMO, in a legal free market fem beans should cost the same or maybe a little bit more than regs, because of slightly increased cost of manufacture and skill needed to make them. Double the cost (which is the current practice) is too much, and less than the cost of regs is too little.

I could maybe imagine a situation where demand for regs is so low, and requirement to maintain males so high that regs justify a *slightly* higher cost, but this would be a pretty unusual circumstance, and the premium here shouldn't be much. Back in the day when breeders actually tried to create stable lines, open pollinization was the norm, and because of uniformity, there was no need to maintain individual males to propagate a line.

If DNA is saying that simple S1s or F1s should cost less than actual worked lines, well, there I agree. IMO its lunacy for buyers to pay premium prices of $15-20 per bean just for easily produced and unworked S1s of "name" lines, but that's what's happening in some cases.

They are working on reg's for there strains but some will never be able to have true males as there parent(OG18,OG,SD,Kosher,ect..) are 2 females. They have messed up in the past and brought out strains in reg's seed like sour diesel but messed it up by using Sour Cream as the male and the results are not Sour Diesel, we all make mistakes and they seem to have learned not to do that anymore.

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The first thing, I get. As mentioned above, if your "strain" is just a cross of two female plants, well. . .there are no regs to sell!

On the second thing, that's a question of marketing and quality control. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with selling Sour Cream x Sour Diesel, for example. The issue is how good is the cross in question and how are you marketing it.

If your line is bad, it doesn't really matter what you call it. . .its still bad. Some breeders actually sell stuff without rigorous testing, and that's a problem.

If the line is good, then comes the issue of how its marketed. With this particular example, I think there is plenty of room to argue about what constitutes "Sour Diesel", but if your plant is fairly UNLIKE the "clone only" plant that goes by that name, you probably shouldn't name your line after it!

Its easier to take 2 females that you have smoke tested and cross them together with a goal in mind to create something new then to take a tested female and cross to a male that has never been smoked. When's the last time you smoked some male bud....

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Males don't really make buds, but good males from potent lines can make resin and have surprising potency. Last time I smoked a male was 15+ years ago, and despite what I just said, I still wouldn't recommend it, if you can help it!

Anyway, traditionally, all breeding was done the old fashioned way with males and females. If you're starting your breeding with actual STRAINS (ie inbred lines), not "clone only" mutt/polyhybrids then it doesn't matter if you use males or females, because they'll be close to genetically uniform anyway.

Clearly its easy to cross two females of known quality, lots of the "breeders" do this, and a few of them do almost nothing BUT this. The "issue" here is that all of the breeders of quality (and I include DNA here) claim that breeding with feminized se-eds is "wrong" and say they don't/won't do it. Why they say this is an open question for me, but I still do think there is something to be said about old school selective breeding.

Its simple supply and demand, there is no grand scheme by breeders to rid the "common man" from high quality males. Seriously think about the logistics of trying to even attempt that, it makes absolutely no sense. I do like DNA, but they cater to many of the same customers as Barney's Farm and Greenhouse... i.e. inexperienced growers. Inexperienced growers often choose feminized seeds. Once again, supply and demand.

Subcool of TGA said on one of the Weed Nerd episodes that he has been approached numerous times to create feminized seeds and if he did he would become the top seller on Attitude Seeds. He obviously declined but has already created his own niche in the industry but it is just another example of how companies respond to the market, that is how you survive running a business.

danky supreme said:

Its simple supply and demand, there is no grand scheme by breeders to rid the "common man" from high quality males. Seriously think about the logistics of trying to even attempt that, it makes absolutely no sense. I do like DNA, but they cater to many of the same customers as Barney's Farm and Greenhouse... i.e. inexperienced growers. Inexperienced growers often choose feminized seeds. Once again, supply and demand.

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I think you have to figure that all breeders cater to inexperienced growers to a large extent, since those are the biggest consumers of commercial beans. I agree; obviously no breeder can eliminate males from the gene pool, let alone the commercial ceed market.

To the extent that this is a factor at all, I think the thought is, that if breeders only produce feminized beans, then the home grower can't easily make their own F1s, ensuring more demand for the product. Also, more important, this makes it a little harder for other breeders to rip off a given line.

I don't think it quite applies to most of these fem lines, since most of them aren't really stable, but one of the worst possible things in the world for a breeder is to spend many years developing a good IBL, then have someone else just buy a pack and sell the F1s under the same name. Under the current black market system, breeders have no recourse if/when this happens.

Fem seeds are just a marketing ploy. They can charge more for fem seeds so they make them. Plain and simple. Reg seeds a far more superior imo. That's why I respect sub he won't sell out and Fuck up his genetics by making fem seeds.

stay dank

Jogro said:

I think you have to figure that all breeders cater to inexperienced growers to a large extent, since those are the biggest consumers of commercial beans. I agree; obviously no breeder can eliminate males from the gene pool, let alone the commercial ceed market.

To the extent that this is a factor at all, I think the thought is, that if breeders only produce feminized beans, then the home grower can't easily make their own F1s, ensuring more demand for the product. Also, more important, this makes it a little harder for other breeders to rip off a given line.

I don't think it quite applies to most of these fem lines, since most of them aren't really stable, but one of the worst possible things in the world for a breeder is to spend many years developing a good IBL, then have someone else just buy a pack and sell the F1s under the same name. Under the current black market system, breeders have no recourse if/when this happens.

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I feel Subcool's experiences with potentially feminizing his line demonstrates my belief very well. I understand what the thought process is but IMO its kind of that "corporate conspiracy" mentality that really makes no sense when one studies business and economics. Yes there are scumballs in any industry but for the most part this is blown out of proportion. Swerve creates F1's and he is known as one of the sketchiest individuals in the seed game, so if breeders were trying to hoard genetics I feel he would be the one to do it.

I suppose it could totally be a case of supply and demand but I find it hard to believe that a " breeder" would not be interested in trying to protect his work somehow??? I consider myself "oldschool", I struggled with the notion of fem seeds for a long time...as a matter of fact, it was just recently that I tried out fems for the first time. They grew out just fine but if I have to choose, I would stick with good ol regular ceeds.

Jogro is correct in saying that if you must have regular ceeds, just contact the breeder. It does not always work but in my experience quite a few have accomadated the request. In other cases my emails went unanswered. While its true that there are still many breeders that offer regular ceeds, in most cases for me personally, it usually turns out that I am not interested in thier genetics so it takes me back to square one, aquiring the genetics I do want in regular ceed form....and in many cases the strain is only available in Fem ceed.

Every "breeder" out there has used someone elses work at one point or another. Some are just more open and honest about it then others. As a ceed buyer, when I purchase that ceed, it now belongs to me and my feeling on it is that if I choose to breed with it whether by crossing to make a hybreed cross or just Breed it to itself, I will do so. Why am I going to put myself at the mercy of ceed companies to order 5 or 10 at a time when i can make my own ceed for my own purposes??? I do order ceeds but its always with the intention that at some point I will be working on a breeding project of my own. As I said earlier...I am old school and the truth about old school growers is that they have been doing thier own breeding as long as they have been growing...thats just a fact.

I dont believe that ANY BREEDER can say outright " that strain belongs to me"...thats just pure fucken bullshit! The fact is that they aquired the genetics from someone..somewhere!!! The other fact that remains is that every breeder out there already knows that others are going to breed with thier work...thats a given. Now when a so called breeder takes someones work and stamps thier name on it for profit...then I can see the breeder that put forth the effort to stabalize the strain getting a little pissed about it...ya but I'm not in that end of it so it makes no difference to me. I make my own crosses with whichever strains I choose for my own use and I will continue to make my own seed as long as I am in the verticle position.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sx1gBAhd4nI&list=PL2K133wykM_sSApyyGiHoU11oV7SSpS4k about 1:50 in DNA explains there thoughts on fem seeds production.

thepaintedchef said:

Fem seeds are just a marketing ploy. They can charge more for fem seeds so they make them. Plain and simple. Reg seeds a far more superior imo. That's why I respect sub he won't sell out and Fuck up his genetics by making fem seeds.

stay dank

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I like Sub and Weed Nerd but i believe he doesnt make fem seeds because it takes more work and he is set in his ways. There is no difference in regular seed female and feminized seed females if you believe other wise your believing in a myth...

booms111 said:

I like Sub and Weed Nerd but i believe he doesnt make fem seeds because it takes more work and he is set in his ways. There is no difference in regular seed female and feminized seed females if you believe other wise your believing in a myth...

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I agree with what you say to a point. If the the fem ceed was created by way of CS or STS then yes..I agree that the female plant will be the same as a regular ceed female plant. Other methods that involve stress factors to reverse a female to make pollen I have my questions and concerns. This also brings up another point which is....if a fem ceed female plant is no different then a regular ceed female plant, then whats the difference if you use a regular ceed female to breed with or a feminized ceed female to breed with???? The arguement being that if your looking for regular ceeds to breed with....well why not just use a Feminized ceed female plant to breed with?? Of course this only works to make a hybreed cross or for selfed fem ceeds.

I would say that Chemdawg, OG kush, Sour Diesel, ect. all came from stress induced pollen by accident in somebodys room and look what they have become with no CS or STS. Dont you guys think that Subcool using Space Dude as his male over and over in his crosses is effecting the genetic pool in more of a bad way then breeders crossing 2 clone only females to each other making new strains. DNA has lots of fem seeds crossed to fem seed, Holy Grail Kush comes to mind. og18 came from seed and so did kosher which created a all feminized seed cross. What im getting at is I see no difference fem or regular female genetics to breed with, its already been done and works either way. Every pack of feminized seeds where there was 2 different females in cross has been better then any regular seeds ive ever bought. Selfed females S1's, as in 1 female crossed to herself i have had bad luck with never being anywhere near as good as original mom.

thats about the score I'm working with too boom. only fems I've had good luck with were crosses. I've ran a few S1's but I've yet to get lucky with one.