Hollow Stem Strains
- Thread starter Bonequicha
- Start date
kona gold
Well-Known Member
I agree with you bro!
Most breeders today only sell clone only hybrids! Problem with this is there not even sure the real genetics, and they are for the most part unstable and future breeding seems to reveal many of these strains weaknesses. Like unstable and hermaphroditic!!
Breeders today suck for the most part, capitalizing on the coattails of some name, and trying to bank off of it!!!
I am seriously thinking about opening my own seed bus, cause my stuff breeds true and stable for the most part.
Its like you rarely see any more stable new strains, just the old classics; nl, sk, haze....., but these genetics are getting old and not the same as used to be.
It just seems like it's about the money, most don't take the time and selections it takes to make a strain stable.
I get a ten pack of seeds, i'm getting 5-10 pheno's, even from fems.....go figure! I mean i like genetic variations very much, but to breed these seeds is very challenging and usually disappointing. I used to get more stability out of bag seed than these breeders!! I never got any pine-sol lemon funk from my Larry's, just 10 different variation. Barney's the same, reserva pravada, sensi seeds,ace.....all crap!!
When i used to get seeds from Marc Emery, even though he was an asshole, the seeds were stable!
Whats up seed breeders???!!!???
polyarcturus
Well-Known Member
sounds like me an you are 2 peas in a pod... what up with them? well money is always enticing... seem even some of the oldschool breeder have been getting greedy too anymore..
but really there needs to a clear cut genetic identicfication guide so to speak so people know what thier buying, mostly F1s) but i will say this thanks to these foolish breeding practices these breeder have take they have done several things that works in favor of a knowledgeable breeder trying to come up in the seed game.
the most advantageous part to thier crazy breeding methods means that anyone who serious about breeding could generate a new pure strain(IBL) and hit the market hard. the last one to come out was sannies jack herrer and people went nuts. im not against F1s but people should be aware of what thier buying, i think larry was first released as an F1 than an F2 was Bxed to the F1 recently.
barneys farm has open pollination practice, so thier selfed seeds also get mixed with the fem seeds but thier genetic variation is intentional personally i think they do a pretty good chop, not too much varience unless it one of their newest strains.
not probs with sensi myself
Jogro
Well-Known Member
For what its worth, the original Jack Herer has been around for 20+ years and Sannie has been working on his version for ten years. So I don't think this is really all that new. His version is popular not only because its really good in its own right, but because it only costs a fraction of its "name" predecessor. I don't know how much the fact that its inbred has to do with this. There is also another differently selected inbred version of this out there, though I forget which breeder offers it.
Along those lines, comparable to Sannie's Jack as worked versions of existing famous strains, Paradise ceeds has in the last year or so released inbred versions of White Widow and Cheese. Can't speak to their quality, but they're out there. All the landraces are inbred, and there are plenty of those out there too. Supposedly most of the Mr. Nice lines are inbred.
You've probably seen my report on Williams Wonder, which is an old inbred line, newly re-released into ceed form. There are inbred versions of Trainwreck out now, and probably a few other old school lines.
There are breeders putting out new inbred hybrid lines, just no that many, and they just don't necessarily get a lot of attention.
For example, Black Creek Garden's "Spyder" is a newly released IBL autoflower based (IIRC) on one of the Subcool strains. There probably are other inbred autos. I've heard about a privately held inbred version of Green Crack. . .though its not commercially available.
I'm not really sure any of these are going to make a big market impact, and its for the simple reason that the market isn't demanding them. If the market wanted IBLs, that's what the breeders would be putting out. Whether or not they "should" is a whole other topic, but I think most growers don't know/care about inbred lines, and the demand just isn't there.
Personally, I think inbred lines really are ideal for small home growers. The reason is that a home grower can cross any two IBL plants and at home generate ceeds that will all be substantially similar to the parents. Also, all plants grown from ceed will be similar, and that's very useful for anyone with limited space and resources who wants to know what they have before starting. Unlike the prevalent unstable hybrids, if you grow an IBL one time, and you know what every other ceed in that pack will be like and how it will perform in your setup.
polyarcturus
Well-Known Member
you are a wealth of info jogro!
i dont keep up with the "stories" as far as strains go. but IBL is where the breeders need to get back too, and i agree 100%! for the average small scale grower IBLs are way more beneficial but there arent enough of them out there!
when i do release some seeds, and hope to one day. i want to release , IBLs amd F2s specifically for breeding. i want people to be able to breed my seeds as well as hunt for phenos. the one thing i think about is repeat customers. a lot of breeders like to think because a person has seeds or strains they wont buy more, but in my eyes it takes money to make money. if they are doing well with the strains they have they will always have an interest in more, even if they have their own genetics. i mean, i got shit tons of seeds, all kinds of strains and crosses, but im always looking for more, and willing to buy them if they catch my interest.
Jogro
Well-Known Member
Blind squirrel. . .nut.
Thank you.
If you're interested in looking for them, I think there are plenty of inbred lines out there, not just the old standbys (ie NL#5, Skunk #1, Durban, Malawi, etc), but inbred versions of "name" strains (see below).
I think the real deficiency here is in growers knowledgeable about them, and interested in giving them a shot.
Let face it, most cannabis growers (or consumers) aren't geneticists, and they don't really understand what IBLs are, let alone why these might (or might not) be a good choice for growing. The ceed business is more about "strain of the month" and promotion, and fanciful ad copy than excellence in genetics.
Well, I think if you want to be successful in any business endeavor, you have to provide what the market demands, and in such a crowded field as cannabis seids, you have to find your "niche". As you probably know, actually providing true excellence in genetics. . .that's only a small piece of the pie here. It certainly helps to have this, but I don't think its sufficient, and its probably not even necessary.
As some consideration, let me say that two of the most respected and successful breeding cos are Mr. Nice and Serious s-eeds. The founder of MNS, Shantibaba, actually has a Master's degree in plant genetics. The founder of Serious, Simon, also has postgraduate level training in genetics (though I forget his exact credentials) and IIRC used to teach biology. You can read about his personal philosophy here, and how HE thinks his business ought to relate to customers: http://www.weedworld.co.uk/blog/exclusive-interview-simon-seeds
On inbred lines, part of the "problem" finding them is that existing ones often aren't labelled/marketed as such. EG, I think many of the MNS lines are inbred, just not marketed as such. Ditto for Serious.
Sannies Jack is probably close, though supposedly even at F7 there is a bit of phenotypic variation. "Williams Wonder F3" probably is inbred in terms of actual genetics; its just an F3 from the original (inbred) Super Sativa Seed Club ceeds used to grow it out. The Spyder autoflower I mentioned above was inbred for (IIRC) nine generations and probably could be considered an IBL. Of course by definition all of the landraces are IBLs, though in a few cases ceeds labelled as IBLs are actually hybrids labelled with the landrace parent name.
Some currently available inbred versions of famous lines you may not be aware of:
Rasputin IBL (autoflower, Crazy X se-eds): This is AK47 x lowryder backcrossed and inbred until stable; they also used to (and may still) offer a Trainwreck IBL.
Sour Diesel IBL (Reservoir se-eds): Don't know how good this is, but the breeder is making the claim.
White Widow and Cheese IBL (Paradise): Again, what they sound like.
Berry Indica IBL (Classic seeds): Not sure exactly what the lineage of this is, maybe an inbred Blueberry.
Afghan #1 IBL (Rare Dankness): New breeder, old standby.
Herijuana IBL (multiple breeders, including Sannie, RCMC): Still "hip" after 20 years.
Red Heri Fruit Bud IBL (Royal Canadian MJ collective): Don't really know what this is, though its billed as an F19, probably has herijuana in it, and sounds pretty good!
OG Kush Lemon Larry IBL (Alpine ceeds): Gotta love the name, this is an OG Kush type IBL. The genetic detail in the description here is interesting: http://www.seedsman.com/en/og-kush-lemon-larry-regular-seeds
Romulan (Next Generation): They describe their current version as an 8th generation backcross, which sounds a lot like an IBL to me.
Bonkers (Next Generation): This is a mishmash of genetic backgrounds, but they call it an IBL.
Etc.
bomb hills
Well-Known Member
Been growing blue dream for the last few crops and she has hollow stems. Never really thought much about it til now.
polyarcturus
Well-Known Member
thanks!
shatibaba and simon are my idols. ive based alot of the things ive done on their methods... and i live near a town with a big plant biology school. i can go back and i have been very seriously contemplating about going back specifically because of what i want to do with my life. i have come far in my understanding on plants, i think i could go a lot further if i had the means and dedicated myself. actually now that im, kinda taking a break from growing, i am gonna go there and talk to some of the professors.
RockyMtnMan
Well-Known Member
Don't know the background genetics, but Cali Connections has Boss Hogg now. supposed to be a chem4 incross. (been refered to in some discussions as an IBL) I got two freebies from the Attitude in December. I popped them with my order, and got two females out of them. In veg they were identical. In flower they started to display two phenotypes. One was six inches taller and formed longer slender fan leaves. The other's leaves blades remained broader and the plant was shorter, but much frostier with higher trichome production. They are hanging as we speak, will have a smoke report in a couple weeks.
Jogro
Well-Known Member
Just to address the topic of the thread, most drug cannabis strains I've seen have hollow stems. though this isn't apparent until the stems achieve a certain diameter. Certainly the trait is common, and there may be an environmental component to this. Not really sure what (if anything) this brings to a line, except maybe you can use the stems for pipe stems or other tubes!
*IF* the incrossing process is repeated long enough (typically 7 generations or more) then the offspring may be genetically homogeneous enough to be considered an inbred line.
As an example this is what Sannie did with his Jack F7. He started with Sensi Jack Herer, then crossed individual outstanding phenos he found to each other, did selection for the traits HE liked, and repeated until he now has his version.
So while some people confuse the terms "IBL" and "incross" they are not the same thing. Incrossing is ONE way to create an IBL; its not the only way.
As to Boss Hogg, I really don't know the genetic details of how Cali Conn created that line, but I suspect its probably NOT (yet) a true breeding (Ie "inbred") line. Its probably somewhere along the way there (ie an inbred F3 or F4) just not totally stable.
To clarify here for anyone not familiar with the term, an "incross" means a plant is bred to ITSELF (creating pheno variations) and then selections are done from those phenos, and the process is repeated. In contrast, an "outcross" is where two DIFFERENT lines are crossed.
*IF* the incrossing process is repeated long enough (typically 7 generations or more) then the offspring may be genetically homogeneous enough to be considered an inbred line.
As an example this is what Sannie did with his Jack F7. He started with Sensi Jack Herer, then crossed individual outstanding phenos he found to each other, did selection for the traits HE liked, and repeated until he now has his version.
So while some people confuse the terms "IBL" and "incross" they are not the same thing. Incrossing is ONE way to create an IBL; its not the only way.
As to Boss Hogg, I really don't know the genetic details of how Cali Conn created that line, but I suspect its probably NOT (yet) a true breeding (Ie "inbred") line. Its probably somewhere along the way there (ie an inbred F3 or F4) just not totally stable.
kona gold
Well-Known Member
Thanks for all the info Jo.....you are on it.
I think that even though there are plenty of ibl's out there, we need more consistancy in the lines.
When i make my personal ibl's, they are consistant.
What i mean by this, is if i crack ten seeds, i'm gonna get ten seeds of one pheno.
I have a hard time calling a strain an ibl, if its offspring have four pheno's for example.
It should be pure breeding strain.
This is not easy to accomplish because of the amount of genetic material in cannibus. The are i believe 10 pairs of chromosomes; of 20 total chromosomes, almost half of what humans have.
So you really need hardcore selection process, not just growing out thousands of seeds and selecting the best ones, and locking down a few traits. You must lock down the strain, i feel, to call it a true breeding ibl.
Very challenging, but can be done.
I went to college for bio, so i feel that helps very much in terms of understanding mitosism dna, recombination.....but you also, i feel(again subjective), that its also about who you are, the energy you project, your humility, and the senses you have. Like a good wine taster.....you must have the nose, pallet, and the mindset to accomplish what you objectives are.
Now , i have a good friend in Montana, who runs a place up there, and has access to all the clones from cali, and montana, and anywhere else has them available. But he wants seeds from me, cause he tells me their better, more stable, and his best sellers.
Now, please dont take this as bragging, cause that not what i am about, but it to make a point, that breeders should make their strains more consistant.
As a grower and a breeder, i want my pack of seeds to be what the descriptiom says!!
I shouldn't HOPE to find a keeper, all the females should be keepers.
I know you cant lock it down for every single trait, cause to much genetic material, but you should be able to kock down the major factors to b consistant for; structure, yield, resin profile, leaf size n shape, flower time, taste, potency n health! Now things like pest resistance, mold resistance, frost resistance....are harder to lock down for me, but some need to breed for these also.
I feel in a few years all growers will start to embrace ibl's much more and demand consistancy for their money n time.
I have tried a few "landrace" strains from ace n highgrade seeds, but these lines are fully unstable, and not in a good way!
But thats just my experiences.
As for my thoughts on Shanti, is that he is to arrogant and worried about being the originator of all the strains out there.
That to me tells me he is not humble enough to b a master, cause u never know everthing, and once u start acting like that, your breeding is gonna suffer, cause u wont learn from feedback from others, which is one of the most critical factors for improvement and futhering your gear.
Jogro
Well-Known Member
Maybe what we need is a little more integrity in the ceed business (eg NOT calling things "IBLs" when they are F4s).
The cannabis genome (which has been sequenced) is about 818Mb in size, compared to about 3.2Gb for humans. So if you want to do the comparison, its probably fairest to say the cannabis genome is about 1/4 the size of the human genome.
Regardless, I don't think the number of chromosomes or absolute size of the genome has much to do with this at all. Breeders for 10,000 years have had no problem making true breeding lines of wheat, corn, dogs, cats, rats, horses, sheep, and a zillion other species many of which have more chromosomes and bigger genomes than cannabis. Until maybe 20-30 years ago, it used to be the standard with cannabis as well. Its just about doing proper selection, that's all. More genetic complexity just means the selections may be harder or take a little longer, but even there not that much more to it than that.
In the case of cannabis, the limiting factors restricting the numbers of new inbred lines here are mainly legality (which makes it much harder to do selection from large numbers of plants), market demand, and breeder integrity.
Of course, and so does everyone else, but again we get back to breeder integrity there.
If a breeder has integrity, he'll tell you if a line is stable or unstable, and if unstable what type of pheno variation you might expect. I've seen some outfits market ceed lines as untested. Maybe not the most useful description, but you can't fault them for honesty, or fairly complain later about how they turn out!
Well, they "should" be if the line is bred/marketed that way. If you are so interested, there are lines like that out there. Its up to you to do your homework and identify them.
Of course I agree with your sentiment, and am a big proponent of this. If you're a small personal use/stealth grower, the LAST thing you want is to have to go through 5-10-20 plants before you find one "keeper". You may not even have the ability (let alone desire) to maintain mother plants or clones, and for a variety of reasons may prefer to start from seeds every time. This being the case, genetic consistency matters. . .a *LOT*.
One big thing is just understanding the nature of the marketplace. Most "strains" aren't, and most "breeders" (including big outfits some of which have award winning lines) aren't. Most strains out there are mediocre, and bluntly probably 2/3 of them have no reason to exist at all (ie they're not substantially different, let alone better than, the best of them).
For probably 95% of home growers, a ceed from a 20 year old established inbred line that is hermie resistant, pest and disease resistant, consistent, and (say) "only" 17% THC is a better choice than some pack of unstable "OG" polyhybrids from a big-advertising breeder that will put out a mish-mash of sativa-like and indica like phenos, even if some of them are 22% THC.
I hope so too, but this is hard to say. Obviously, there will always be a minority of true/good breeders interested in doing that, and a minority of growers interested in buying lines like that. If said breeders come up with GREAT inbred lines, and start pushing them and their advantages, that could spur the market a little bit.
On the other hand, in places where cannabis is decriminalized within the USA, the trend has been more towards swapping clones. That ensures genetic excellence without messy breeding or seedmaking! Why do a three year breeding project to stabilize a line, when you can just pick the best individual pheno from an F2 or F3 give it a fancy name, clone it, and pass it around?
I can't comment on the guys humility or lack thereof, but I know he does know a lot about cannabis genetics and breeding, and he's got a lot of good lines. Whatever his faults, he's still probably more knowledgeable and experienced than 90% of the breeders out there now, and I think he's earned his place.
HGK420
Well-Known Member
When i get time il read this whole thread, but just to put this out there, a holy grail kush i took the other night had VERY hollow stems! i had to tie this one up, pretty much every brach, all the way through bloom. buds were very large compared to the stem stem size they were attached too. its not so on my other holy grails. when i take them il know if they are as hollow as this one was if at all.
ricky1lung
Well-Known Member
The Herijuana Jack by CH9 that I just finished had hollow stems.
Nice plant and decent smoke.
Nice plant and decent smoke.
hsfkush
Well-Known Member
All of my plants do that, it's part of the natural growing process. The plants will do this mainly during stretch in order to help support the branch, or at least that seems to be the case with mine..
Wicked1
Member
Honestly I do not believe Swerve could breed rabbits but WTF......and here are some hollow stems all 20 seeds popped have hollow stems Male and female:
bluntmassa1
Well-Known Member
lol, you must be a great breeder you've been at it since '92 yeah maybe in your closet chucking some pollen you talk like its a unicorn yet I've seen it many times and the clones clone and them clones have hollow stems. your so full of shit dude maybe if you bought from a real breeder and not your closet hacks that obviously suck.
HGK420
Well-Known Member
my holy grail winner had very very hollow stems as i stated before. now that I've taken a few more and this includes a few other seeds of it. the true winner has way Hollower stems then the other ones. kona might be on to something but at this point I'm sure the trait is available throughout most of the genetic line. il vouch too that the winner is very hard to clone. I've managed several so far but thats with several fails too. they keep getting air up the stem and falling over. I'm using gels and a water cloner. some of them pop roots in 7 days and are good to go but others won't do anything for weeks or they die randomly from day 1-21 it doesn't matter they just randomly die sometimes.
Less fiber production probably = more other production it only makes sense.
Less fiber production probably = more other production it only makes sense.
kona gold
Well-Known Member
You dont know me bro.....or much of anything else obviously!! If you read my earlier posts you would know i'm talking about a specific variety, not an occasional pheno or mutation. Every seed is hollow stem! You could have a five foot plant, and the base the stalk doesnt get thicker or woodier than any other place along the stem. Meaning you can easily snap big plant at their base with nothing more than your hands, and it just snaps, no fiber strands. And i dont chuck pollen jerk....i carefully think out every cross i make well before i make them. I use seperate room for males, and seperate the males, so the dont contaminate each other....then i label a branch i want to pollenate, and very carefully pollenate, and keep them in another seperate room for couple days till pollen does its job...spray off then return to finish seeds. Everything is kept meticulously in a note book, then results compared to what i was expecting from cross! Maybe you should stop acting like you know, and allow yourself to gain knowledge so you wont be so ignorant!