Sifting through prop 19's ashes

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growone

Well-Known Member
Dan Kone said:
That's correct. But it has to be for all the people, not just the people who agree with us.

I really hate to be a downer here, I know we are all on the same side, but don't expect a more liberal bill to pass after this one failed.

Our best bet now isn't to try to pass a more radical piece of legislation that makes it tax and regulation free. Our best bet is to come up with a piece of legislation keeping all the taxes and regulations of prop 19, except in a way that is more inclusive.

Perhaps a ballot measure that keeps growing and selling of cannabis separate. Saying those who grow cannabis for profit can not sell cannabis retail. That way we aren't putting the entire business in the hands of dispensary owners.

I don't know man.... If we are serious about legalization we have to find a way to tax and regulate it in a way that keeps the support of the 215 community. A very difficult task. All I know is if we really want legalization we have to find a way to make everyone happy.
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i can well agree that a more liberal bill is out
commercial sales are what killed this(i think), look at it from the perspective of the average voter
there were no guarantees what would have popped out, MJ walmarts down the street?
a simple grow at home/residence would have passed easily
 
tc1

tc1

Well-Known Member
growone said:
i can well agree that a more liberal bill is out
commercial sales are what killed this(i think), look at it from the perspective of the average voter
there were no guarantees what would have popped out, MJ walmarts down the street?
a simple grow at home/residence would have passed easily
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Under Prop 19 local municipalities had the right to decide where commercial sales could be done, if any at all.
No commercial = no taxes = no "help the economy" argument = even less votes.
 
1gamma45

1gamma45

Active Member
I just fear that this not passing will be held against anyone in any state tring to get some kinda legal passing for MJ. They now have new relavent picture they can pull out and throw in our face anytime someone brings it up. And the fact is it didnt pass. It was in the hands of the people and they said no. So now they can just sit back and say but the people already came out and they dont support it thanks for you and have a nice day.


I just wish people would understand its alot easier to amend something then to get it passed in the first place. This should have passed then had facts built up to support amending it to be closer to what we all wanted reather then piss on it and give the nah sayers fuel to and ammo to shoot down more tries. And that what voting no did gave fuel and ammo to the nah sayers.
 
Dan Kone

Dan Kone

Well-Known Member
growone said:
i can well agree that a more liberal bill is out
commercial sales are what killed this(i think), look at it from the perspective of the average voter
there were no guarantees what would have popped out, MJ walmarts down the street?
a simple grow at home/residence would have passed easily
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I still believe it was 95% a perception problem. That perception problem was 100% the fault of Richard Lee and the other prop 19 financial backers. Rather than going into detail about what parts of prop 215 would have been exempt, it should have just said "prop 215 is exempt from the rules and regulations of prop19". No one could misinterpret that. The also shouldn't have pushed those obscene permits threw in Oakland before prop 19 came to a vote.

If they would have done those two things prop 19 would have had active support from the medical community and it would have passed. If the medical community was donating money and out campaigning for prop 19 it would have been a different ballgame. Their votes weren't enough to pass prop 19, but their efforts could have been.

I don't think we can have legalization without retail sales of cannabis. Non-smokers will not vote for legalization if there is no financial benefit. The commercialization is why it would have passed. The perception Richard Lee created for how it would be commercialized is why it failed.
 
G

growone

Well-Known Member
tc1 said:
Under Prop 19 local municipalities had the right to decide where commercial sales could be done, if any at all.
No commercial = no taxes = no "help the economy" argument = even less votes.
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i understood that was the setup, local control, and that does sound good from a certain point of view
but you have to look from view of a certain voter, the ill informed, non smoking kind, of whom there are many
quite easily to assume the worst case, local control doesn't always mean good
when you say commercial sales, pictures of large, invasive dope dens come to their minds
and there are a lot of voters like that, far more than the growing community
a modest set of home growing rights is just not as threatening
not necessarily 5 x 5, learned that lesson from this fiasco
 
G

growone

Well-Known Member
Dan Kone said:
I still believe it was 95% a perception problem. That perception problem was 100% the fault of Richard Lee and the other prop 19 financial backers. Rather than going into detail about what parts of prop 215 would have been exempt, it should have just said "prop 215 is exempt from the rules and regulations of prop19". No one could misinterpret that. The also shouldn't have pushed those obscene permits threw in Oakland before prop 19 came to a vote.

If they would have done those two things prop 19 would have had active support from the medical community and it would have passed. If the medical community was donating money and out campaigning for prop 19 it would have been a different ballgame. Their votes weren't enough to pass prop 19, but their efforts could have been.

I don't think we can have legalization without retail sales of cannabis. Non-smokers will not vote for legalization if there is no financial benefit. The commercialization is why it would have passed. The perception Richard Lee created for how it would be commercialized is why it failed.
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yeah, there are always these unpredictable events that pop up
the 1 person sponsor(face wise anyways) really didn't help, Lee was vilified, bad press all the way
commercial sales are a tough nut, it's the critical issue
you may be right it's necessary, i think you might get a home grower's bill to pass, but that might be my bias leaking in
so there are some lessons learned here, i'm sure more will follow over the next few years
feel the need that some good cam from this bitter disappointment, i'm as down as anybody here
so kicked off a thread as a bit of therapy
 
Dan Kone

Dan Kone

Well-Known Member
growone said:
commercial sales are a tough nut, it's the critical issue
you may be right it's necessary, i think you might get a home grower's bill to pass, but that might be my bias leaking in
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Think of it this way... Imagine something you don't really care about but kind of don't like and imagine that thing is coming to your town/city.

For me I'll pretend it's a nascar races in my town. Since I won't be going to the nascar races anyways, I don't really care about it that much.

Now say you have the chance to vote for it or against it. Since I don't want a bunch of nascar fans running around being douchebags I'd probably vote against it. Now lets say those nascar races will be taxed and bring jobs into the town helping the economy. The town is broke and it needs tax money, plus I know a bunch of people out of work. Well now that I see there is a benefit to my town and those races really don't effect me much since I won't go anyways I might reconsider that no vote and support it.

Reverse that and that's how a lot of nascar fans saw prop 19. They don't really care for cannabis legalization, but they saw the economic benefits so a certain amount of them voted it.

We can not have an end to prohibition without the support of people who have no interest in cannabis. A legalization law needs to have incentives for those people. They live in California too and the laws are for everyone, not just us.
 
Burger Boss

Burger Boss

Well-Known Member
withoutAchance said:
what if it passed and the feds decided to enforce their laws to the fullest and made a point to do so,putting even medical use in danger the feds could and would do thisif we push too hard too fast, and the law needs to have strict bans agiast big corps taking over and plant or #age maxxes that would be enforceible or we will all be smoken Mari with a phillip moris stamp and chemicals.

My point of view anyways
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Your point of view seems to include the federal government declaring some kind of war on the citizens of California and/or other states for their medical marijuana positions. I don't see that happening. In spite of the seemingly immovable position of the Fed's, they wouldn't paint themselves into a corner over this.
 
JayTrinity

JayTrinity

Active Member
Im ~SOOO~ Glad its not going to happen in my county, next door, on a massive scale, near schools with every joe from every state hopping the train (Actually hopping a train)

I'm even more happy Oakland droned out of the scene with their massive grows.

Clubs dont need 400% prophet.

We have enough hippies with guns in my tiny town already.

Thrilled with the elections in my state, gov the AG everything...

Let the ashes of prop 19 RIP and go work on something that closes all the loop holes us locals are going to vote down next time.

Legalize it!
 
veggiegardener

veggiegardener

Well-Known Member
Although many folks don't like the current(215-420) system that has evolved, what they don't seem to get is that what we have now provides MORE freedom at a far lower cost than "legalized"(taxed and regulated) would ever allow.

I think, given another five years, de facto legalization will exist in California.

Be patient. Get your recommendation. Behave like a law abiding citizen, because you are.

Gently persuade as many people as possible that MMJ social clubs should be allowed similar to the Elks, Moose or Eagles lodges. Membership required. Dispensary on site.

Pragmatism is a good thing.

Agreed, the current system has been cobbled together over the lat 14 years. The up side is, after a bunch of adjustments, it's working pretty well.
 
Burger Boss

Burger Boss

Well-Known Member
veggiegardener said:
Although many folks don't like the current(215-420) system that has evolved, what they don't seem to get is that what we have now provides MORE freedom at a far lower cost than "legalized"(taxed and regulated) would ever allow.

I think, given another five years, de facto legalization will exist in California.

Be patient. Get your recommendation. Behave like a law abiding citizen, because you are.

Gently persuade as many people as possible that MMJ social clubs should be allowed similar to the Elks, Moose or Eagles lodges. Membership required. Dispensary on site.

Pragmatism is a good thing.

Agreed, the current system has been cobbled together over the lat 14 years. The up side is, after a bunch of adjustments, it's working pretty well.
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Well, isn't THAT interesting! Ya think just maybe the same COULD have been said about 19 IF it had a chance????
 
veggiegardener

veggiegardener

Well-Known Member
Burger Boss said:
[/I][/B]

Well, isn't THAT interesting! Ya think just maybe the same COULD have been said about 19 IF it had a chance????
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No.

Too many fleas.

The difference is, 215 was very simple and chose not to add regulations, instead placing limits in the hands of doctors and their patients.

P19 attempted to regulate, but in a fashion that would lead to myriad bad laws.

There is currently an ENORMOUS glut of Cannabis out there because everybody and his brother was supposed to be looking for "legal reefer".

Are you growing your own? Several friends have fronted pounds at $1000 to $1600/lb, only to see their weed listed for $20/$45/$320 by the clubs.

Compassion?

Better to form co-ops that are legal under 215/420 and see the patients pay less than $100/oz.

THAT is what MMJ should be about.

Legalization as you envision it would be a nightmare.

Wanna go to jail for smoking in your living room where your sleeping kids might get a whiff in bed?

If you're in Central Cali, you know what BS Modesto pulled.

Do you want regulation of "legal" weed by the same folks?

You'll be driving to Oakland to score.

I doubt one city in ten, in the Central Valley would allow pot stores in their town.

Too expensive to regulate.

The same folks who backed P19 will be back with an "improved" version.

Hopefully we'll see their efforts well before November, 2012.

Maybe they'll be less greedy.

More likely, the Legislature will take a stab at it, with a supportive Governor. Jerry won't sign it, if it doesn't make sense.(I've had the distinct pleasure of voting for him three times.)
 
daehtopeguh

daehtopeguh

Member
Prop 19 shouldnt have been done in CALI. so many people would have lost so much money if it were made legal. It woulda been cheap and gov. run and you wouldnt need a med card either. So Doctors Dealers and Dispensaries would have been shut down hard. Down forget LOADS of people flocked to CALI for the Green rush...
 
G

growone

Well-Known Member
i have noticed a number of posts how the MJ prices have been dropping in Cali
price is a pretty good indication of risk, low risk, low price
which does seem to be good that Prop 19's loss hasn't been a big momentum killer
weed prices are dropping, and will probably continue to drop, enforcement is just not able to make a dent
 
veggiegardener

veggiegardener

Well-Known Member
Prices have dropped for the grower, but much less at the retail level.

As mentioned, dispensaries are lowballing the vendors. I've been hearing prices for top shelf as low $1500/lb, FRONTED to the dispensary.

A good friend just took a hit when one dispensary was shut down in Rancho Cordova. Everybody who had fronted to them lost their product. Because of the glut of dispensaries in many areas, local governments will, and are starting to limit numbers and closing those that are less reputable, or have less political clout.

It's a mess, brought on by the legalization "scare".

As prices remain low, vendors will reduce production because they can't sell their finished product for a reasonable return.

Prices to patients won't drop until dispensaries start producing their own product. Even then, there's no real incentive to reduce prices, as long as patients continue to pay.

In 1990, the best outdoor weed was selling for up to $6000/lb. That same pound would bring $1000/lb now, because it was mostly outdoor grown.

In 1990, an ounce from that pound was selling for $350-$400 an oz. About the same as dispensaries are selling their top shelf for, now.

Where's the difference going? Into the hands of dispensary owners.

Had P19 passed, some of that difference would end up as taxes. Who would be forced to absorb that added cost?

The end user.

High quality Cannabis requires a lot of labor throughout its production, from making clones to trimming. I figure I spend about 70 hours per pound produced.

How should I value my time?

How much will you pay, buying my weed by the 1/8th?

The fact is, no matter where you get it, whether from a dispensary, P19 pot store, or a dealer who buys from vendors, you'd still be paying $300-$400 an oz.

There was NO upside to P19, except in your dreams.
 
G

growone

Well-Known Member
veggiegardener said:
Prices have dropped for the grower, but much less at the retail level.

As mentioned, dispensaries are lowballing the vendors. I've been hearing prices for top shelf as low $1500/lb, FRONTED to the dispensary.

A good friend just took a hit when one dispensary was shut down in Rancho Cordova. Everybody who had fronted to them lost their product. Because of the glut of dispensaries in many areas, local governments will, and are starting to limit numbers and closing those that are less reputable, or have less political clout.

It's a mess, brought on by the legalization "scare".

As prices remain low, vendors will reduce production because they can't sell their finished product for a reasonable return.

Prices to patients won't drop until dispensaries start producing their own product. Even then, there's no real incentive to reduce prices, as long as patients continue to pay.

In 1990, the best outdoor weed was selling for up to $6000/lb. That same pound would bring $1000/lb now, because it was mostly outdoor grown.

In 1990, an ounce from that pound was selling for $350-$400 an oz. About the same as dispensaries are selling their top shelf for, now.

Where's the difference going? Into the hands of dispensary owners.

Had P19 passed, some of that difference would end up as taxes. Who would be forced to absorb that added cost?

The end user.

High quality Cannabis requires a lot of labor throughout its production, from making clones to trimming. I figure I spend about 70 hours per pound produced.

How should I value my time?

How much will you pay, buying my weed by the 1/8th?

The fact is, no matter where you get it, whether from a dispensary, P19 pot store, or a dealer who buys from vendors, you'd still be paying $300-$400 an oz.

There was NO upside to P19, except in your dreams.
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upside/downside, prop 19 is history
is it the cause of grower misery? probably not, though that's not going to be provable, one way or the other
what you are probably seeing in the cannabiz is what you see in mainstream agriculture in general
it usually sucks being a producer, the middlemen tend to be the bigger winners
 
veggiegardener

veggiegardener

Well-Known Member
growone said:
upside/downside, prop 19 is history
is it the cause of grower misery? probably not, though that's not going to be provable, one way or the other
what you are probably seeing in the cannabiz is what you see in mainstream agriculture in general
it usually sucks being a producer, the middlemen tend to be the bigger winners
Click to expand...
That's why I prefer to see the co-op model for Medical users.

It brings the entire system around to a compassionate mind set.

Legalization could potentially put the entire production of Cannabis in corporate hands.

Go down and buy a pack of Acapulco Gold Filters for $100, made of ground up weed, stems and all.

Scary!
 
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