The capabilities of a simple soil (and a 1000w DE bulb with SIPs)
- Thread starter kratos015
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MustangStudFarm
Well-Known Member
These are some name brand Earthboxes, I made larger DIY ones too, but these work fine in tents. Earthboxes have shower caps covering the pot, so that might be mandatory for this kind of growth? I've experimented with getting a full mycelium layer and it seems like adding a little compost before grokashi really helps. I recently got my soil tested and hired an agronomist to help with recommendations, so I should be back very soon. I only understood half of the problems that I was having, now I have the full picture. These plants ended up with bad yellowing problem, but then again I had iron, manganese, and nitrogen issue which all cause yellowing. So, I was in bad shape for a minute lol.
MustangStudFarm
Well-Known Member
I've been having my soil tested and recently hired an agronomist to have a look at my tests and I'm always low in micronutrients, this time it was iron, manganese, and boron. For that reason, I like to run my Ph a little low. However, that led to me not using enough calcium and I started having C Def issues too. My phosphorus was through the roof, so using calcium and iron should help(thanks agronomist). I'm using Gypsum to keep from raising my Ph now. I wouldn't worry about Ph being low, soil can handle Ph being as low as 5.8 w/o problems and it's actually better if you have micronutrient problems... You're talking about Grokashi helping break things down, if you are one of those guys that use crab meal as an amendment, then using barley seed and grokashi would help break down chitinase. Grokashi does more than that, but I found this to be helpful. If you have pots that stay wet on bottom and dry on top, then Grokashi, LABS, or EM1 would help with that. I mean these are anaerobic bacteria and it will help with soggy soil.
kratos015
Well-Known Member
Life got hectic for me lately, wasn't ignoring you. Apologies.
Outdoor plants can be extremely heavy feeders if you let them, some plants I'd top dress weekly so what you're experiencing isn't exactly uncommon.
What indoor light are you using, exactly? Outdoor plants will use way more nutrients than indoor plants because they are growing underneath the natural sunlight as opposed to artificial light. Even the best quality LEDs/DE bulbs don't hold a candle to the sun. Potassium plays a vital role in photosynthesis, plant respiration, and regulating the opening & closing of the stomata, all 3 of which will happen exponentially more in an outdoor environment than in an indoor one.
The differences in growth that you're experiencing isn't so much because of the "fast release nature" of your fertilizer, if that were the case then the growth would be similar in both your indoor and outdoor grows.
The differences you're experiencing are solely related to the sun. My 1000w DE gives me some amazing growth, but nothing will ever compare to the sun.
As they say "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
Lovely plants Fox. You play Smash? A good Fox player can give me hell!
By all means, you and anyone else are free to link to anything they feel will help others. I'm only posting this because I wanted to demonstrate just how little one needs to get a living soil growing.
Have you looked into Fertilome? Its a pretty good product, and was helpful for me with lowering my pH prior to getting my Calcium filters for my hoses. Might be useful for you. I have a few bags of Bokashi sitting around doing nothing, I may attempt to top dress with them just for the hell of it.
SIPs have been keeping my soil perfectly moist, I've noticed much more fungal activity on the top of my soil as a result. At least, I believe it is the result of the SIPs. The soil in this grow is a fresh batch. Usually takes me a few no-till runs before seeing this kind of fungal activity.
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kratos015
Well-Known Member
Life's been pretty hectic for me lately, won't bore you with the details but its why I've not been active much as of late.
Here's some photos of the girls now, day 35 of 12/12 at the moment. The SIPs are insane, but the soil and light also deserve credit for their work as well. Looking to be my best indoor grow yet, and the SIPs definitely get the credit for that. This soil recipe isn't anything new, and I've used the light before, but damn these SIPs are game changing.
Here's some photos of the girls now, day 35 of 12/12 at the moment. The SIPs are insane, but the soil and light also deserve credit for their work as well. Looking to be my best indoor grow yet, and the SIPs definitely get the credit for that. This soil recipe isn't anything new, and I've used the light before, but damn these SIPs are game changing.
Nothing to apologize! Hope everything is going ok.
I have a SE 400W HPS bulb.
Still can't decide between upgrading the light to something else, or just keep on dialing other aspects and try to yield as much as i can get from that 400W bulb.
myke
Well-Known Member
I’ve found with my 600 turned down to 400 it really only does one big plant. @18””.
kratos015
Well-Known Member
Ahh, okay that explains why you're experiencing such difference in growth indoor vs. outdoor.
Since a SE bulb has the weakest spectrum out of the bunch (DE, CMH, LED), you're seeing significantly less photosynthesis going on as opposed to outdoors. This reduced capacity for photosynthesis will naturally result in significantly less nutrients being used by your plants.
Lights are more concerned with spectrum as opposed to actually wattage. Examples given below assume all 1000w lights, and percentages below are rough estimates.
For example:
Quality LED lights typically offer 100% of the light spectrum, which means that every single watt in your LED light gets used. So, a quality 1000w LED your plant can actually make use of all 1000w of light.
DE bulbs are a close second, offering ~90% of the full light spectrum. As a result, your plants can make use of 900w/1000w of the DE light.
SE bulbs are drastically worse, offering ~30-40% of the full light spectrum (depending on the bulb). So, your plants are only making use of 300-400w of a 1000w bulb.
Believe it or not, a DE actually makes it easier to cool your room than a SE bulb. This is because DE lights are mounted to the ceiling, and since heat rises, only the top foot or so of your grow room will actually have heat. Conversely, SE bulbs hanging 2-3 ft from a grow tent will result in a more difficult environment to cool, because now heat is rising to the top 3ft of a tent/grow room instead of staying at the top foot.
Right now, my ambient temps are 60-70 degrees so even with a 1000w DE bulb my AC barely comes on and my 720cfm inline fan keeps temps under control. Normally, people advise against using DEs in tents because they're supposed to be 4-5ft away from the canopy. However, as you can see from my grow my plants are doing just fine and the DE is 1-2ft away from the canopy. I'm kind of shocked, I attribute this to my RH% which has been a steady 50-60%.
So, to answer the question to your dilemna. I always recommend dialing a room in first, but a new light will help immensely here. A 1000w DE fixture can be had for <$200 on Amazon, and it can be dialed down to 600w no problem. The one I got came with a DE HPS, the DE MH cost me ~$40.
My 1000w DE is lighting up a 6x8 (48sqft) canopy, which is insane for $200. 2 1000w SE set ups with hoods cost much more than that, and would only fill a 4x8 canopy with significantly less amazing results.
While DE bulbs don't have the perfect spectrum of quality LEDs, they make up for it in superior canopy penetration power and for a fraction of the price. LED prices have dropped significantly, however I haven't checked them in nearly a year now. Last I checked, it'll cost anywhere between $500-$700 for a quality LED set up capable of lighting a 4x4 space, where as one can procure 2 DE fixtures for cheaper that will light up a more space
Thanks for the answer kratos; great explanation.
Must confess i wasn't aware about the DE technology in HPS lamps.
I can't get DE bulbs in my country, also no dimmable ballasts.
Right now i believe i will be adding another 400W bulb since i already have an extra ballast and a friend can lend me his vented hood.
Would you run 2x400W inside my 3,3x3,3 tent? Because i can also get rid of the tent, use the room and try to fill a slightly bigger canopy, around 14-17sq ft.
The extra 400W only costs me 10$ (being that my friend can lend me his hood), and would leave me money to buy things like more fans or whatever if needed.
My idea is to use the room in the future, with a bigger and better light setup, but i must take baby steps while getting there since things here are pretty expensive. A 250W QB led is like 450$
Must confess i wasn't aware about the DE technology in HPS lamps.
I can't get DE bulbs in my country, also no dimmable ballasts.
Right now i believe i will be adding another 400W bulb since i already have an extra ballast and a friend can lend me his vented hood.
Would you run 2x400W inside my 3,3x3,3 tent? Because i can also get rid of the tent, use the room and try to fill a slightly bigger canopy, around 14-17sq ft.
The extra 400W only costs me 10$ (being that my friend can lend me his hood), and would leave me money to buy things like more fans or whatever if needed.
My idea is to use the room in the future, with a bigger and better light setup, but i must take baby steps while getting there since things here are pretty expensive. A 250W QB led is like 450$
kratos015
Well-Known Member
I used to use 600w SE bulbs for 3x3 areas. Does your country offer CMH fixtures?
Not quite sure if you could even fit the 2 400w vented hoods in that space, and if you could the ventilation of the hoods may not be efficient so I wouldn't recommend it.
Stick with the 400w light for now, and like you said, focus on getting the experience with the fundamentals first. Definitely admire the "baby steps" approach, it is crucial before one considers expanding past a grow tent. Expanding is always exciting, but you'll find it more efficient and exciting with more experience under your belt.
I wouldn't go outside of the tent unless you're certain you can keep the entire room the same temp/humidity that you can with a tent. Controlling an environment in a tent is simple enough. Small humidifier, small ventilation fans, and possibly even no A/C. Built in reflective walls too. Easy to keep light where it should be, and maintain specific temp/humidity when its inside of a small 3x3 or 4x4 tent.
But when you open up to a room (say, average 8x10 bedroom) now the entire 8x10 space needs to have the same specific temp/humidity. This means an A/C, even with a single light. And you'd need an expensive humidifier, not only to keep the 8x10 room humid but to also compete with the air conditioning.
A 4x4 tent with a near perfect controlled environment will shit on an 8x10 without the previously mentioned controlled environment.
When you do decide to expand, don't cheap out on air conditioning/cooling. Much better to spend too much money on cooling than to watch your grow suffering, especially when its on a larger scale.
All the best.
kratos015
Well-Known Member
Day 37 of 12/12 today, pretty much just simple maintenance from here on out.
I won't need to top dress anymore until after the plants are chopped, so its pretty much just a matter of keeping the SIP reservoirs filled with water and riding it on out.
Only thing I'll be doing from here on out is hitting them with the same foliar 2-3 times a week (spots aren't mildew, just Epsom Salt residue), and giving them some Fish Hydrolysate next week.
I'm surprised it even took this long, but the leaves closest to the light are finally starting to show signs of light stress. I thought this would have happened weeks ago before they even got this big.
I've always heard a 1000w DE needs 8ft ceilings minimum, and this tent is only 7ft. I believe the biggest factor is the RH has never been below 50% in here. I'll post photos of my hygrometers next time I'm at the grow. 60-70% RH has been the average since using the SIPs, but the plants don't seem to mind it one bit. I have plenty of circulation in here, if mold/mildew were a threat I would have already seen it by now. Only mold in here is on my soil ;p
Handful of leaves are suffering from signs of wind burn, but the plants overall look healthy.
I won't need to top dress anymore until after the plants are chopped, so its pretty much just a matter of keeping the SIP reservoirs filled with water and riding it on out.
Only thing I'll be doing from here on out is hitting them with the same foliar 2-3 times a week (spots aren't mildew, just Epsom Salt residue), and giving them some Fish Hydrolysate next week.
I'm surprised it even took this long, but the leaves closest to the light are finally starting to show signs of light stress. I thought this would have happened weeks ago before they even got this big.
I've always heard a 1000w DE needs 8ft ceilings minimum, and this tent is only 7ft. I believe the biggest factor is the RH has never been below 50% in here. I'll post photos of my hygrometers next time I'm at the grow. 60-70% RH has been the average since using the SIPs, but the plants don't seem to mind it one bit. I have plenty of circulation in here, if mold/mildew were a threat I would have already seen it by now. Only mold in here is on my soil ;p
Handful of leaves are suffering from signs of wind burn, but the plants overall look healthy.
600W SE was and still is on my plans.
Right now i'm dealing with peak temps of 82-86F with the 400W HPS. My AC unit is a portable one and not very potent, so i was afraid of not being able to deal with the higher temps of a 600W bulb. Here is summer right now, but it only has a month and a half left, so maybe those temp won't be a problem in autumn and winter.
The 600W bulb and ballast would cost me 90$.
About CMH:
Main options here are made by a national company that uses General Electric bulbs and make their own mechanical ballasts. The 300W fixture is in fact a 2x150W. I add some pics here, they are not very good looking
They cost like 225$
Another option i was thinking about is to boost the 400W HPS with a 180W led panel with Citizen COBs. But since QB is the new trend in leds, i'm not sure about the COBs. I believe this setup would be more heat friendly that the 600W, but can't tell for sure.
It costs 180$
I believe it would be a choice between the 600W or the 180W COB to boost the 400W HPS.
I could use the 180W led also as my veg light in the future and not spend so much vegging with the 400W HPS. But that led panel costs as two 600W bulbs and ballasts. In the other hand, a 600W replacement is about 30-40 dollars, so in the future they would add up to the price.
What do you think about the 400W plus the 180W led?
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kratos015
Well-Known Member
When you say 82-86F, do you mean ambient or inside your tent? Only reason I'd grow in temps over 80F is if I was using CO2, and my RH was over 50%.600W SE was and still is on my plans.
Right now i'm dealing with peak temps of 82-86F with the 400W HPS. My AC unit is a portable one and not very potent, so i was afraid of not being able to deal with the higher temps of a 600W bulb. Here is summer right now, but it only has a month and a half left, so maybe those temp won't be a problem in autumn and winter.
The 600W bulb and ballast would cost me 90$.
About CMH:
Main options here are made by a national company that uses General Electric bulbs and make their own mechanical ballasts. The 300W fixture is in fact a 2x150W. I add some pics here, they are not very good looking
They cost like 225$
Another option i was thinking about is to boost the 400W HPS with a 180W led panel with Citizen COBs. But since QB is the new trend in leds, i'm not sure about the COBs. I believe this setup would be more heat friendly that the 600W, but can't tell for sure.
It costs 180$
I believe it would be a choice between the 600W or the 180W COB to boost the 400W HPS.
I could use the 180W led also as my veg light in the future and not spend so much vegging with the 400W HPS. But that led panel costs as two 600W bulbs and ballasts. In the other hand, a 600W replacement is about 30-40 dollars, so in the future they would add up to the price.
What do you think about the 400W plus the 180W led?
Controlling your grow rooms environment is priority #1 here. I'd suggest investing in better environmental control over lights if those are the temps in your tent. Spend the money of your budget on better cooling (and in some rare cases, heating. Whatever you need to control temps). I'm not sure if you have humidity control, proper airflow, or proper ventilation; but if you don't then fix those issues before getting a new light.
In terms of what is most important for a good grow, it'd be something like this;
Environment control (temps, humidity, airflow, and ventilation) > quality of soil > quality of plant genetics/strain selection, > light would be last.
A room with mediocre genetics, Miracle-Gro soil, a single 180w LED light (like the one you mentioned) will shit on a room with high temps/low humidity/no airflow that houses the best soil and genetics in the world underneath the best grow lights.
A room with bad environmental control will fail; even if it has the best lights, the best strain in the world, and the best soil.
It's easy to be tempted to go cheap on certain things when you're on a budget and trying to grow your own, but don't. Trust me, I learned that the hard way. And I know I'm not the only one.
Control your environment first. This means you can keep the room between 73-78F at command, can keep RH in the 40%+ region, have enough airflow that every single sqft of your canopy gets a nice and gentle breeze from an oscillating fan's coverage(s), and that you're exchanging the air in your grow room to sufficiently replenish fresh CO2 into your room.
Once one has done all of the above, they can then focus on the overall quality of the soil.
Once the environment and soil are up to snuff, now its worth improving your genetics.
Then, finally, once all of the above has been satisfied, then one can finally start looking into improving their light source.
Thanks for the clarification on the lights, by the way. Now I know that anything but LED and SE are out of the question.
The 400w + 180w LED could be worth while for a few reasons. I'm sure you've done your research on quality LEDs (I know little), but ensure you're getting a quality LED fixture capable of quality results. Assuming that:
The only "con" to adding the 180w LED is that the part of the canopy under the 180w LED would show better growth, bud structure, and terpene production as opposed to the part of the canopy under the 400w SE. Not really that much of a "con", just be kind of a tease to have 1/3 of your canopy be superior to the other 2/3 lol
You could even mitigate the above "con" by re-arranging the plants a few times a day. Sounds silly, but its why light movers work so well.
Consider outdoors, the sun is never directly overhead the plants for the duration of the daylight cycle. Outdoor plants get anywhere between 3-5 hours of direct overhead sunlight, with the rest of the light not being overhead. Moving the plants in this set up is definitely not mandatory, just a little extra step that would ensure all of your plants get time underneath the LED.
The LED would also be good for your situation because it doesn't produce as much heat, as you pointed out. Then, in the future when you're able to budget for more lights you can simple grab another one or two of those 180w LED lights and your entire tent will be filled with LEDs.
Definitely focus your environment first and foremost though.
Kratos, thanks for your constant help and the space you are giving me in this journal.
Temps are inside the tent.
Average is about 80 i would say, but peak temps are as stated, 82-86.
But i believe i can maintain them at 80F max with a little rearrangement in some things.
Anyway, will dial in the environment first and spend money there before anything related to lighting or whatever.
Thanks a lot man.
Temps are inside the tent.
Average is about 80 i would say, but peak temps are as stated, 82-86.
But i believe i can maintain them at 80F max with a little rearrangement in some things.
Anyway, will dial in the environment first and spend money there before anything related to lighting or whatever.
Thanks a lot man.
kratos015
Well-Known Member
Happy to help my man.
The main reason to post this journal was for it to be somewhat of a template for other people.
In both my opinion and experience, people tend to way over-complicate growing. I constantly post on these forums about how to keep things simple, but I've never "put my money where my mouth is" so to speak. Hard to recommend a simpler approach to someone when there's no proof of doing it myself.
I'm fine with people posting whatever, or asking questions if need be. My hope is that someone might be able to reference this thread one day and it'll help someone down the line.
The main reason to post this journal was for it to be somewhat of a template for other people.
In both my opinion and experience, people tend to way over-complicate growing. I constantly post on these forums about how to keep things simple, but I've never "put my money where my mouth is" so to speak. Hard to recommend a simpler approach to someone when there's no proof of doing it myself.
I'm fine with people posting whatever, or asking questions if need be. My hope is that someone might be able to reference this thread one day and it'll help someone down the line.
kratos015
Well-Known Member
Hey guys, life has been too hectic to post in this daily.
Nothing really new or eventful yet in day 51, really won't be until harvest. They did start the process of swelling up a little under a week ago, so looking like another couple weeks (give or take).
These were taken yesterday (day 50).
Just hitting them with my weekly foliar and keeping the SIPs full, all I've really done to them since last posting. They have been getting weekly fish hydrolysate the past couple weeks, especially the Critical Blue that didn't feel like doing shit until the last minute and has leaves getting lighter.
May have noticed the plants are succumbing too being close to the heat. Surprised it even took this long. Damage isn't too bad, all things considered, but ultimately damage is damage. Regardless of that, I'm beyond impressed with this DE.
I used to need 2 SE 1000w hooded fixtures just to cover a 4x8 space, this fucking DE covers a 5.5x8 sqft space. That's an extra 12 sqft, which can be an extra half pound or even more.
This one light is giving me results that used to require two lights. Not only am I not paying for an extra 1000 watts a month, I'm also not paying to cool it.
Nothing really new or eventful yet in day 51, really won't be until harvest. They did start the process of swelling up a little under a week ago, so looking like another couple weeks (give or take).
These were taken yesterday (day 50).
Just hitting them with my weekly foliar and keeping the SIPs full, all I've really done to them since last posting. They have been getting weekly fish hydrolysate the past couple weeks, especially the Critical Blue that didn't feel like doing shit until the last minute and has leaves getting lighter.
May have noticed the plants are succumbing too being close to the heat. Surprised it even took this long. Damage isn't too bad, all things considered, but ultimately damage is damage. Regardless of that, I'm beyond impressed with this DE.
I used to need 2 SE 1000w hooded fixtures just to cover a 4x8 space, this fucking DE covers a 5.5x8 sqft space. That's an extra 12 sqft, which can be an extra half pound or even more.
This one light is giving me results that used to require two lights. Not only am I not paying for an extra 1000 watts a month, I'm also not paying to cool it.
@kratos015 Despite the canoed upper leaves in a few places, they look really healthy. And no abundant burnt leaf tips even in the uppers is a good sign, which is an achievement considering you're obviously pushing them VPD-wise. Great grow and nice work. I'm looking forward to the photos before chop. Should be a decent yield.
kratos015
Well-Known Member
Its definitely the main factor as to why this light hasn't scorched these plants yet. Appreciate the kind words. More excited to see what this single light yields more than I am the finished product. Lots of potential here for next time.
El Verdugo
Well-Known Member
Great journal @kratos015 Thank you