The end of the rope is near...

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
I just can't do it like I used to..

Engage with people about science or religion I mean..

I'll read a post where I think to myself "how is this thought process even fuckin' possible?", then I'll start out with a response and half way through, the voice in the back of my head starts screaming "why the hell are you wasting your time with this?!". 99% of the time, it's the exact same types of people. They generally hold some form of theistic belief, they do not know/understand formal logical fallacies (rendering communicating with them essentially useless), they're irrational, arrogant, and always vague and non specific..

Do you feel the same things? I've noticed there's been somewhat of a decline in this section, it seems like the regulars are just as fed up with everything as I am. Shit gets old when you explain it a million different times.

It's a little defeating, but it's taught me a pretty important lesson; you can't change the world, you can only change yourself.
 

Dislexicmidget2021

Well-Known Member
In regard to your post Pad,I agree with what youre saying.I personaly may not be the most logicaly presentative when it comes to what i post here,BUT i find it important to learn from mistakes or to correct my own misunderstanding of a given subject and be open to new information.Ive seen it countless times though,where an arguement or debate is presented by someone and they elude any followup or concede just enough to almost seemingly patronize what is being pointed out in their logical fallacy,yet it is their own escape from having to think about those flaws,that can be frustrating shit.
 

420IAMthatIAM

Active Member
:wall:
I just can't do it like I used to..

Engage with people about science or religion I mean..

I'll read a post where I think to myself "how is this thought process even fuckin' possible?", then I'll start out with a response and half way through, the voice in the back of my head starts screaming "why the hell are you wasting your time with this?!". 99% of the time, it's the exact same types of people. They generally hold some form of theistic belief, they do not know/understand formal logical fallacies (rendering communicating with them essentially useless), they're irrational, arrogant, and always vague and non specific..

Do you feel the same things? I've noticed there's been somewhat of a decline in this section, it seems like the regulars are just as fed up with everything as I am. Shit gets old when you explain it a million different times.

It's a little defeating, but it's taught me a pretty important lesson; you can't change the world, you can only change yourself.
why am i even here?:wall:
 

tyler.durden

Well-Known Member
I feel you, Pad. I was more enthusiastic when I first found this site, and specifically this sub-forum. It was my first experience in online posting, and I was anxious to learn and to voice the little I know. I still do from time to time when I see an interesting thread, and sometimes you encounter a person with spiritual/theistic beliefs that seems to genuinely want to discuss them (and possibly even learn from their errors in thinking). That's cool. But as you say, most don't fit this description and nothing anyone says is going to influence them. In this case, it is a waste of time unless participation is mainly for amusement (which for me it often is). Sam Harris says it well - 'If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide that proves someone should value it. If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you invoke to show that they should value logic?'
 

ultraviolet pirate

Well-Known Member
im like samuel clemens take on it, and i try to follow his advice...basically, i wont discuss politics or religion...but i will talk about fishing.
there are some very narrow minded people on here who believe they own the definitive opinion of any given subject and simply have not grown enough mentally to see a side of an issue that conflicts with what they think. post something contrary and you will get shouted down. it reminds me of the old soviet congress meetings where policy and power were made by the biggest bully and who was more scary. i rarely post in the political section...just way too many assholes and not worth the aggrevation, and its not like the top posters read anything but their own shit.
since ive been on i do take the time to check out what you guys say when i come across it, both of you, pad and durden....small voices but its way more interesting than the egos with the megaphones saying the same old tired shit trying to bait people.
 
I just can't do it like I used to..

Engage with people about science or religion I mean..

I'll read a post where I think to myself "how is this thought process even fuckin' possible?", then I'll start out with a response and half way through, the voice in the back of my head starts screaming "why the hell are you wasting your time with this?!". 99% of the time, it's the exact same types of people. They generally hold some form of theistic belief, they do not know/understand formal logical fallacies (rendering communicating with them essentially useless), they're irrational, arrogant, and always vague and non specific..

Do you feel the same things? I've noticed there's been somewhat of a decline in this section, it seems like the regulars are just as fed up with everything as I am. Shit gets old when you explain it a million different times.

It's a little defeating, but it's taught me a pretty important lesson; you can't change the world, you can only change yourself.
now,thats a good piece of wisdom
tks
 

eye exaggerate

Well-Known Member
I just can't do it like I used to..

Engage with people about science or religion I mean..

I'll read a post where I think to myself "how is this thought process even fuckin' possible?", then I'll start out with a response and half way through, the voice in the back of my head starts screaming "why the hell are you wasting your time with this?!". 99% of the time, it's the exact same types of people. They generally hold some form of theistic belief, they do not know/understand formal logical fallacies (rendering communicating with them essentially useless), they're irrational, arrogant, and always vague and non specific..

Do you feel the same things? I've noticed there's been somewhat of a decline in this section, it seems like the regulars are just as fed up with everything as I am. Shit gets old when you explain it a million different times.

It's a little defeating, but it's taught me a pretty important lesson; you can't change the world, you can only change yourself.

...so, why do you feel like your material perspective is the only possible one? Also, why don't you acknowledge the theists here that CAN engage you - and don't want to 'convert' you? All the fish at the top of the barrel obscuring the view of 'those who made it'? There's about 50,000 questions left to be answered on this site before the boredom sets in.

*but I do know what you mean. Maybe my question is what constitutes arrogance here? Posting replies from the heart is not condescending or arrogant. People saying that they 'believe in something greater than themselves' does not spell out arrogance, imo.

Not being able to see the symbolism in the imagery used in various scriptures is the issue. It has been my experience that deep within the myths is a seed of truth. Trying to understand the myths intellectually doesn't work. It has to be felt. All I can say is that those seeds grow and cause a better understanding overall for the person that is exposing them. 'Solar Man' is a person who has the capacity (light - mind) to expose what is hidden.

***no person should walk around thinking "wow, I'm 'solar man!' - don the cape and try to fly. They don't consciously say "ok now, I have to be 'this way' and 'that way'... That's not the fckn point. That's seriously messed up. The point is understanding, or wisdom. Wisdom as far as I know is the 'child' of mind and heart. In a sub-forum with 'philosophy' in the title, I think that's about the 3rd time I've seen the term used. Wisdom. You can't 'have it' or 'get it', it grows but not on it's own. Something like evolution, I suppose.

I'm going to edit this one more time and stop there. If a person came to an intellectual impasse in their own scientific studies, would it be beneficial to expand their thinking the way that myth prescribes? (heh...with a 'bridge')
 

Zaehet Strife

Well-Known Member
I like to write. I'm thinking about writing a book... not to make money, to give out for free and have other like minded people enjoy the read.

Have you ever tried to study something without going to school? It's hard to stick with it, you don't have the pressure or initiative to continue to learn at a steady pace when someone isn't pushing you, or you don't have a deadline. It's really easy to not work at it, or find something else to do.

I find posting on here stimulating for my mind. It helps me present myself with new ideas, as well as read some really good ideas sometimes from other people on here. Every time i write a reply to someone, i understand better than anyone... that you cannot convince a believer of anything, for their beliefs are not based on evidence, they are based on a deep seated psychological need to believe.

These are not my intentions. My intentions are to critique my own writing, to watch myself come up with new ideas, and new ways of explaining things. Learning from myself, learning from the few of us on here who actually contribute and present legitimate and fun to think about concepts. The more i write, the better i get at it. The more i write, the more i learn about myself, and the more i learn about others, which is always fun for me.

I'm not sure, but it would seem plausible to think that there are people that come to this website and read, without ever commenting or making any sound, maybe something i say will effect them in a positive way, will help them through some crises or depression. You never know who might be reading, or who we might be helping through a tough time of intellectual inquiry, when we decide that what we think we know... is merely what we think we know.

A lot of times when i hear a theist make some irrational idiotic remark, i just sigh/ let my shoulders slump, shake my head, and move on. Sometimes it just isn't worth my time, but sometimes it is. Learning how to pick our battles is important i think.

If you don't see me on for a few days, im probably too busy having fun lol. Riding my bike, playing magic with my buddies, final fantasy, going to the pool, diving off of waterfalls... i think it's healthy to take a break from thinking, and just think about having as much fun as possible!

It is awesome though, when you get people on here who you can help, Hep is a grand example. Don't you regulars here remember the (no offense bro) crazy talk he used to spew at us? For the better part of it, those of us who are compassionate tried to explain things to him in a kind and empathizing manner. (i know it can be hard, and frustrating with you get someone who doesn't listen *walkingeagle) and even then, i don't think we should be unkind... but i also don't think we shouldn't be firm in the way we present our information.

It is a good feeling, when you can talk to someone logically, and then imagine them sitting at home by themselves, doing what we all have done. Sitting there in silence, asking ourselves who we are, and how did we become us?... understanding that we don't really know. Thinking deeply about the experiences we have been through, understanding that all of them could be illusory, that we don't really know anything metaphysical. Admitting to ourselves... no, being honest with ourselves, about what we know... and what we don't know. It is hard, and scary, but there are some of you here who can empathize, and understand what it means to be completely uncertain about EVERYTHING.

Coming to the realization that we don't really know, filled me personally, with a sense of empathy. My whole life came crashing down, what i thought i knew was real...wasn't. What i had based my entire existence on, was a lie, presented to me by other people. I remember years ago, just sitting in my room, thinking, and i couldn't help but cry... it made me feel so lost, what was i to believe now that i understand that i cannot be certain of anything? How can i be happy, and live a just life... if good and bad are subjective and not inherent? If meaning wasn't given to me... that i had to give myself my own meaning?...

I remember searching for the answer, i was unconvinced that there wasn't one, i tried researching all religions, tried to find the best one i could, that meant the most to me... in time, i sadly came to the understanding... that what my emotions had striven for so deeply, just one certainty, just one... that i would never achieve, i would never have it.

So with that empathy, i can understand how hard and painful it can be for some people to just think, and question. To meditate, to try their best to be honest with themselves. I know how hard it was for me, and i fortunately find myself to be very open minded... but imagine how hard it is for those of us who aren't? They are going through an internal battle, lies vs/ truth. It is the hardest struggle, to be honest with oneself. It is a hard battle, and most of us don't come out of it without acquiring a few scars.

I think there are two kinds of people, those of us who are honest with ourselves, and those of us who aren't. Those of us who spend hours, days, in deep contemplation, questioning everything we have been told, everything we think we know... we all come to the same conclusion at the end, all of us. That we really don't fucking know ANYTHING metaphysical. And even the things we claim we know, gravity, general relativity, quantum mechanics... the laws that make up the reality that we are living in, it could all be illusion, or a dream... or an endless chart of possibility. We still cannot be certain about the things we have ACTUAL first hand experience with, because what we think is real... could be something else entirely.

I seem to have gotten a tad bit offtrack lol. My apologies. But all in all i feel you Pad, i get discouraged sometimes too, but when that happens i know there really isn't anything i can do to help people reason, or most importantly... be honest with themselves. It's times like that when i step back, take the Beatles advice, and let it be.

If i can say something that i know might help others who will be reading (because i already know it won't help the person i am interacting with) then i will say it regardless. The more i write, the better i get at it.

On a side note, if what you are doing isn't giving you pleasure any more, or a sense of accomplishment... stop doing it, and do something else. Just my two cents.
 

Doer

Well-Known Member
I just can't do it like I used to..

Engage with people about science or religion I mean..

I'll read a post where I think to myself "how is this thought process even fuckin' possible?", then I'll start out with a response and half way through, the voice in the back of my head starts screaming "why the hell are you wasting your time with this?!". 99% of the time, it's the exact same types of people. They generally hold some form of theistic belief, they do not know/understand formal logical fallacies (rendering communicating with them essentially useless), they're irrational, arrogant, and always vague and non specific..

Do you feel the same things? I've noticed there's been somewhat of a decline in this section, it seems like the regulars are just as fed up with everything as I am. Shit gets old when you explain it a million different times.

It's a little defeating, but it's taught me a pretty important lesson; you can't change the world, you can only change yourself.
Not only that. Even when we are trying to teach or learn, the damn language and lingo gets in the way. My main man, who shined a bit of light on my darkness, is fond of saying he was fooled completely. There is no "World" to "Save." There is just people, Knowledge and some understanding.

So, admit to defeat and move on. No one knows shit about anything. Including me, including you. That is the freedom of so-called Enlightenment. And it is the burden.

Welcome.

My beer bubble theory is that we can see some of the other bubbles, some of the time, but we will never see all. They look like us, but they are not. They are as unique as snowflakes, we suppose. Nature and Nurture forms a Mind. We struggle with those young minds just to keep them from killing us all. And we struggle with the old minds for the very same reason.

Don't worry, Be Happy, Know Self.
 

eye exaggerate

Well-Known Member
that you cannot convince a believer of anything, for their beliefs are not based on evidence, they are based on a deep seated psychological need to believe.
...ok ztrife, a need to believe what? Also, what is it that you're trying to convince a believer of? Evidence of what? Evidence of that which has been here long before you were. When you look at something, it is evident. You are not the one really providing evidence for anything. A mathematical "formula" has been placed on an existing object. Bid deal. Once something has been thoroughly tested you adapt to the idea if it fits you. Then, you reiterate it according to your own experience. We all do, I think.

*adjusts your slumped shoulders* :)
 

eye exaggerate

Well-Known Member
My beer bubble theory is that we can see some of the other bubbles, some of the time, but we will never see all. They look like us, but they are not. They are as unique as snowflakes, we suppose. Nature and Nurture forms a Mind. We struggle with those young minds just to keep them from killing us all. And we struggle with the old minds for the very same reason.
I came the same conclusion about bubbles. We're all connected little worlds. Also, when looking at an actual grouping of bubbles, it occurred to me that a straight line could be found in nature. Where the bubbles connect looks like straight lines to me :lol: Random wandering, sorry 'boot that :)
 

newbyy

Member
I just can't do it like I used to..

Engage with people about science or religion I mean..

I'll read a post where I think to myself "how is this thought process even fuckin' possible?", then I'll start out with a response and half way through, the voice in the back of my head starts screaming "why the hell are you wasting your time with this?!". 99% of the time, it's the exact same types of people. They generally hold some form of theistic belief, they do not know/understand formal logical fallacies (rendering communicating with them essentially useless), they're irrational, arrogant, and always vague and non specific..

Do you feel the same things? I've noticed there's been somewhat of a decline in this section, it seems like the regulars are just as fed up with everything as I am. Shit gets old when you explain it a million different times.

It's a little defeating, but it's taught me a pretty important lesson; you can't change the world, you can only change yourself.
i agree with you. life is so easy but when seeing what other people are doing its just gets so hard. and as you said old shit myths and everything governs people's heads.
 

Doer

Well-Known Member
I came the same conclusion about bubbles. We're all connected little worlds. Also, when looking at an actual grouping of bubbles, it occurred to me that a straight line could be found in nature. Where the bubbles connect looks like straight lines to me :lol: Random wandering, sorry 'boot that :)
Little worlds, huh? You know there is an entire branch of mathematics about this. Outside of the extra dimensions concept of Many Worlds, there is Small World Theory. It's the idea I've mentioned in Macro. Who are all these bubbles and where are they? We only know a few people. We've only heard of a few people. We have only seen a few people. But, our Small Worlds are connected by communications into a virtual World in our minds.

Then Smaller World Theory is the 6 degrees of Separation. We don't know these folks in these Small Worlds but we can communicate very well. There have been studies done on this. It is possible to pass a physical object across the globe, hand to hand, with no prior planning. It only takes 5-7 hand-offs. Someone can think of someone that can get the Item farther along. 6 Degrees from Kevin Bacon, the actor is a web site. Surprising how Hollywood has self aggregated so that any actor(any?) is only 6 movies from playing with Kevin Bacon.

And there is an interesting aspect in the Quantum Mind theory. Could the brain be doing this self aggregation at a quantum level. It is exactly how the Internet started itself. And the math has come from studying the Internet. These first aggregation sites were very organic specialized link pools. People just adding links. That was long before Yahoo.

And it is the basis of the blinding fast search on Google. The community aggregates web links by clicks. They add the context the computer code can't. The great Google just watches and learns. That's what we do, also, to help the Google. Google puts the most relevant stuff first, to help us.
 

eye exaggerate

Well-Known Member
Little worlds, huh? You know there is an entire branch of mathematics about this. Outside of the extra dimensions concept of Many Worlds, there is Small World Theory. It's the idea I've mentioned in Macro. Who are all these bubbles and where are they? We only know a few people. We've only heard of a few people. We have only seen a few people. But, our Small Worlds are connected by communications into a virtual World in our minds.

Then Smaller World Theory is the 6 degrees of Separation. We don't know these folks in these Small Worlds but we can communicate very well. There have been studies done on this. It is possible to pass a physical object across the globe, hand to hand, with no prior planning. It only takes 5-7 hand-offs. Someone can think of someone that can get the Item farther along. 6 Degrees from Kevin Bacon, the actor is a web site. Surprising how Hollywood has self aggregated so that any actor(any?) is only 6 movies from playing with Kevin Bacon.

And there is an interesting aspect in the Quantum Mind theory. Could the brain be doing this self aggregation at a quantum level. It is exactly how the Internet started itself. And the math has come from studying the Internet. These first aggregation sites were very organic specialized link pools. People just adding links. That was long before Yahoo.

And it is the basis of the blinding fast search on Google. The community aggregates links by clicks. They add the add the context the computer code can't. The great Google just watches and learns. That's what we do, also, to help the Google. Google puts the most relevant stuff first, to help us.
...this is pretty cool - I'm going to have a gander at the 'little big picture' :) And, aggregates, huh? I know this term has come up many times before with respect to quantum mind. It would seem to me that if we have radio communications, we got the idea for it somewhere :rolleyes: *whistles a tune*
 

Doer

Well-Known Member
It's the end of the rope as we know it.
It is the end of the rope as we know it.
It IS the end of the rope as we know it,
And I feel Knot
 

stoned cockatoo

New Member
I learnt from my grasscity years to stay out of spirituality section. So I summoned my Merkaba and proceded to inter dimensionally travel until I reached rollitup here look at these pictures of astral creatures I meet and draw in paint.
There is a member called dawnofwar over there that should seriously be in a mental home if he is not alread
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Someone somewhere is just picking up the rope. To them, these topics are intriguing and unsorted. There is always someone looking for answers. I like the irony that a stoners den is the place I come to find realism.
 

Chief Walkin Eagle

Well-Known Member
...so, why do you feel like your material perspective is the only possible one? Also, why don't you acknowledge the theists here that CAN engage you - and don't want to 'convert' you? All the fish at the top of the barrel obscuring the view of 'those who made it'? There's about 50,000 questions left to be answered on this site before the boredom sets in.

*but I do know what you mean. Maybe my question is what constitutes arrogance here? Posting replies from the heart is not condescending or arrogant. People saying that they 'believe in something greater than themselves' does not spell out arrogance, imo.

Not being able to see the symbolism in the imagery used in various scriptures is the issue. It has been my experience that deep within the myths is a seed of truth. Trying to understand the myths intellectually doesn't work. It has to be felt. All I can say is that those seeds grow and cause a better understanding overall for the person that is exposing them. 'Solar Man' is a person who has the capacity (light - mind) to expose what is hidden.

***no person should walk around thinking "wow, I'm 'solar man!' - don the cape and try to fly. They don't consciously say "ok now, I have to be 'this way' and 'that way'... That's not the fckn point. That's seriously messed up. The point is understanding, or wisdom. Wisdom as far as I know is the 'child' of mind and heart. In a sub-forum with 'philosophy' in the title, I think that's about the 3rd time I've seen the term used. Wisdom. You can't 'have it' or 'get it', it grows but not on it's own. Something like evolution, I suppose.

I'm going to edit this one more time and stop there. If a person came to an intellectual impasse in their own scientific studies, would it be beneficial to expand their thinking the way that myth prescribes? (heh...with a 'bridge')
I'm replying just in case this gets overlooked...
 
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