The myth of bottled nutes and TLO

greasemonkeymann

Well-Known Member
The positive area of water molecules surround the negative chloride ions. The negative are of water molecules surround the positive chloride ions. As the attractions from water molecules and their motion pulls the ions apart, the sodium chloride c hrystals completely dissolve.


Hope you add this to your notepad
that doesn't make much sense to me...
It dissolves completely?
But it dissolves into water?
Am I missing something?
I found this piece, but it specifically says that table salt isn't desired..

One of the myths that surround commercial fertilizers is that the salts they contain are “harsh” on the biology of the soil. The reality is that salt is essential to all of life. Either too much or too little can harm. Are fertilizers indeed too salty?
Fertilizer salts form soluble ions in soil water. Increased concentration of ions increases osmotic pressure and decreases water potential, making it harder for plants to take up water. This is why plants affected by “fertilizer burn” look about the same as if they had been stricken by drought. They can’t get the water, because there’s too much salt in it.
Fertilizer doesn’t have to burn, though. It’s all a matter of dosage. Plants can’t grow without salt, either. The nutrients they need are salts. The dissolved ions are exactly the form they take up. As long as the dosage is controlled, there is no harm applying a salt to the soil.
The kind of salt is important. Specific salt ions have greater effects than others. The ammonium ion in particular can release free ammonia, especially at higher soil pH. Ammonia moves directly into plant cells. High concentrations can prevent root growth and even kill seedlings. On the other hand, phosphate ions hardly pose a salt hazard at all, since they never get to high concentrations in soil water.
--here is the part I thought was interesting and relevant.-----

Salt is often associated with sodium, because common table salt is sodium chloride. Sodium ions can destroy soil structure and clog the flow of soil water. But there’s hardly any sodium in most commercial fertilizers.

The chloride ion is one of the most soluble.
Grapevines, woody trees, and many legumes are sensitive to it. Research in the southern states showed some soybean varieties to be sensitive to chloride. But research in many other places has found muriate of potash (potassium chloride) to be an effective source of potassium for soybeans grown in deficient soils. And crops like wheat and corn show great benefits from fertilizing with chloride.
Several fertilizers aren’t truly salts. Urea, for example, is a soluble substance that isn’t a salt. Nevertheless, its solubility means it can have an osmotic effect, just like any other fertilizer. It also quickly decomposes to form a salt–the ammonium ion. Elemental sulfur is neither salt nor soluble–but it oxides into sulfate, a salt.
Manures and composts contain inorganic salts, organic salts, and insoluble organic forms of nutrients. But their salt content per unit of nutrient may not differ much from fertilizer, since their nutrient content is a lot lower, and they contain salts not necessarily needed for the crop. Also, as they decompose, the nutrients turn into salts.
How to avoid salt injury? Guidelines for safe rates are specific for each crop and are based on distance from the seedling, soil texture, soil moisture content, and the specific ions in the nutrient source. For ammonium, soil pH is an additional consideration.
I am by no way or shape an expert on soil biology, but it does seem to me that salt isn't needed...
But whatever, this seems to be an argument that is fueled solely by the desire to argue..
Just from what I see...
 

greasemonkeymann

Well-Known Member
The salts break down after cooking as I understand it, and these salt levels are so low that it happens within 24 hours of cooking with your meals. Adding your microbes after this reaction occurs is key. Again, I only ise Hmri listed but I live in an agricultural mecca with plenty of options. I regurgitated fox farms from literature on the subject.

And as far as salts are concerned, they are in every tlo system at they not? The only difference is they are formed through natural chelations produced by bacterial and fungal enzymes. Nitrates produced by bacteria are technically salts eh?
I just see no point of doing this.
Why?
Especially considering you mentioned microbes and the meals we all love, if you were concerned about microbe populations and health and had a soil that was amended and aged correctly... my question is, why on earth would you be using bottled nutrients anyways?
Seems counter-intuitive to me, that's all I am saying.
Like I have said a hundred times, you can grow damn good cannabis using almost anything...
it's a WEED, and it grows in SPITE of a lot of what some growers subject it to.
 

hydroMD

Well-Known Member
Yes, it evaporates like chlorine.

Im not arguing that its best practice as ive said before in this post.

It is not a why you should debate,its simply going to show that you can still keep your soil food web booming even if you run through some bottles fo whatever reason.

I see a lot of people spouting on about any bottled nutes killing microbes when this isn't true.

Only point im making :)

Plenty of reasons to go all water but knowing that bottled nutes is an option without ruining your ecosystem is very pertinent for some scenerios.

Having a 6 month girl running in TLO can be hard to amend without hindsight. Being able to add a little organic matter that is a bit more soluble can pay serious dividends if its between defeciencies or suppliment

Continue debate below :)
 

hydroMD

Well-Known Member
this thread makes me laugh. We should of just ignored it. But putting bad info out there like this thread is not good for noobs to organics
Coming from the guy who insists chelation can not negatively effect microbes
 

hyroot

Well-Known Member
Coming from the guy who says chelations can not negatively affect microbes
that still doesn't make sense. Even though they feed off molasses and other nutes and multiply because of that . The molasses and other nutes then hinders them. That's a contradiction. And an oxymoron. Read some studies. Dont reiterate what you see on another forum
 
Last edited:

hydroMD

Well-Known Member
that still doesn't make sense. Even though they feed off molasses and other mites and multiply because of that . The molasses and other nutes then hinders them. That's a contradiction. And an oxymoron. Read some studies. Dont reiterate what you see on another forum
Its the agents that cause the chelation that are bad. Hence the avoiding products with ample amounts.

If you are truly so versed on the subject, perhaps include your stance on the subject. Enlighten those reading. That is how discussions take place.

Instead youd rather just snivell around the point casting stones because you dont see eye to eye?

Prove me wrong, site some sources. Bring substance
 

hyroot

Well-Known Member
Its the agents that cause the chelation that are bad. Hence the avoiding products with ample amounts.

If you are truly so versed on the subject, perhaps include your stance on the subject. Enlighten those reading. That is how discussions take place.

Instead youd rather just snivell around the point casting stones because you dont see eye to eye?

Prove me wrong, site some sources. Bring substance

I dont have ro.prove you wrong. Its the other way around. you need to backup your claims. You've yet to prove anything. Just conjecture.
 

hydroMD

Well-Known Member
I dont have ro.prove you wrong. Its the other way around. you need to backup your claims. You've yet to prove anything. Just conjecture.
Lets start with what we know about the soil web.

Its a complex chain of micro organisms that all work together. When one link in the chain is taken away, or overgrown, the balance is disturbed and things are not optimal.

Adding molasses and other raw organic matter is inducing your bennies to chelate promoting the breakdown of insoluble organic matter.

My point is that if your adding a liquid nutrient, most will have a very high number of organic chelates.

This throws the balance of chelations breaking down organic matter. When the added chelation breaks down matter faster than the bennies, the whole chain is thrown off.

Thus, if you ever do feel the need to try adding extras into your teas, stick to super low npk with least amount of acids

Your talking about naturally occurring chelating agents. Im talking in terms of if/when you ever feel the need to add liquid.


I never said this was for a noob. I simply am going against the stance that "any liquid nutes will kill your microbes"


I still think the snob remark is being taken too seriously ;)


Again, the only point I am making for those stuck on nuances, is that adding liquid nutes to your teas DOES NOT demolish your CEC. If proper measures are taken during the brewing process and you pick the right liquids, it can be a great tool in your arsenal.
 

hyroot

Well-Known Member
Lets start with what we know about the soil web.

Its a complex chain of micro organisms that all work together. When one link in the chain is taken away, or overgrown, the balance is disturbed and things are not optimal.

Adding molasses and other raw organic matter is inducing your bennies to chelate promoting the breakdown of insoluble organic matter.

My point is that if your adding a liquid nutrient, most will have a very high number of organic chelates.

This throws the balance of chelations breaking down organic matter. When the added chelation breaks down matter faster than the bennies, the whole chain is thrown off.

Thus, if you ever do feel the need to try adding extras into your teas, stick to super low npk with least amount of acids

Your talking about naturally occurring chelating agents. Im talking in terms of if/when you ever feel the need to add liquid.


I never said this was for a noob. I simply am going against the stance that "any liquid nutes will kill your microbes"


I still think the snob remark is being taken too seriously ;)


Again, the only point I am making for those stuck on nuances, is that adding liquid nutes to your teas DOES NOT demolish your CEC. If proper measures are taken during the brewing process and you pick the right liquids, it can be a great tool in your arsenal.

still no proof. Just words of contradictions
 

hydroMD

Well-Known Member
there no such thing as bottled organics. Its impossible to keep those microbes alive in those bottles


chelation will in no way cause any harm to microbes. This is a thread by a nutrient company making up bullshit.

chelation is basically breaking down nonsoluble material. Molasses, fish hydroslate, fulvic acid, coconut water, seed sprout tea's are all chelating agents and yet they improve microbial life.

synthetics and chems will definitely kill off microbes. In organics we dont use high npk. We don't even use npk.

if you are going to make bold claims like these at least show some university studies to back them up. I can find 100's of studied to back up what I stated
Liquid kelp and fish emulsion are not organic?

Please explain this to me. The microbes arent working in powdered kelp either... its a catalyst for the natural process of chelation in your teas.

You compost your kelp meal and then add ewc or compost to inoculate it.


How is this different than doing so with the liquid version?!?!
 

hyroot

Well-Known Member
Liquid kelp and fish emulsion are not organic?

Please explain this to me. The microbes arent working in powdered kelp either... its a catalyst for the natural process of chelation in your teas.

You compost your kelp meal and then add ewc or compost to inoculate it.


How is this different than doing so with the liquid version?!?!
fungi feed off kelp genius

you keep contradicting yourself case and point

from you

Your talking about naturally occurring chelating agents. Im talking in terms of if/when you ever feel the need to add liquid.

yet liquid nutes dont harm microbes according to you.
then you state they do.

seriously go back to the hydro section
 

a mongo frog

Well-Known Member
fungi feed off kelp genius

you keep contradicting yourself case and point

from you

Your talking about naturally occurring chelating agents. Im talking in terms of if/when you ever feel the need to add liquid.

yet liquid nutes dont harm microbes according to you.
then you state they do.

seriously go back to the hydro section
Not very nice
 

hydroMD

Well-Known Member
still no proof.
fungi feed off kelp genius

you keep contradicting yourself case and point

from you

Your talking about naturally occurring chelating agents. Im talking in terms of if/when you ever feel the need to add liquid.

yet liquid nutes dont harm microbes according to you.
then you state they do.

seriously go back to the hydro section
Lol, I see what this is. Its the new kid, lets assert ourselves.

I have said several times thatt there are soup style liquids that can harm microbial life, as well as some that do not. Which is why chelation was brought up. Because soup style liquids have added agents... NOT ALL BOTTLES DO. Choosing a bottle that doesnt is key.

Microbe:Microorganisms. (Including fungus) dumb dumbdumb dumb

Im glad we are both aware of oneof tthe benifits of kelp.


Hence the example.


If someone uses a bottled form of kelp in your tea vs kelp meal.

What's the difference?
 
Last edited:

hyroot

Well-Known Member
bottled kelp they make with left over kelp meal. Like what's left over from a tea. Add water, preservatives, chemicals, heavy metals. In liquid and powder kelp you will find a few of the same chemicals in there that's found in a bottle of drano.

you want Norwegian kelp meal or Acadian kelp meal.

when you make a tea. When you stop aerating. The microbes die off 6 hours later. So how do microbes survive in a bottle without food and oxygen and with chemicals and preservatives.

organics is about feeding microbes. In turn the microbes feed the plant.
 

hydroMD

Well-Known Member
bottled kelp they make with left over kelp meal. Like what's left over from a tea. Add water, preservatives, chemicals, heavy metals. In liquid and powder kelp you will find a few of the same chemicals in there that's found in a bottle of drano.

you want Norwegian kelp meal or Acadian kelp meal.

when you make a tea. When you stop aerating. The microbes die off 6 hours later. So how do microbes survive in a bottle without food and oxygen and with chemicals and preservatives.

organics is about feeding microbes. In turn the microbes feed the plant.
I can dig it man, this is my reasoning why liquid kelp works. Maybe not optimally, but certainly works.

Murphy's Law

Your providing composted organic matter that fungus prefer, and re inoculating it when you add your ewc and compost If it is hmri listed its most likely good to go.

Your inoculating, not building your web from scratch. You should be able to get all the benefits you need from either once everything is established. The CEC should be regulating itself in your media, this is just for beefing up microbes in teas.
 
Top