Has DNA Genetics Seeds Stopped Making Regular Seeds?

[Bear Country]

I would say that Chemdawg, OG kush, Sour Diesel, ect. all came from stress induced pollen by accident in somebodys room and look what they have become with no CS or STS. Dont you guys think that Subcool using Space Dude as his male over and over in his crosses is effecting the genetic pool in more of a bad way then breeders crossing 2 clone only females to each other making new strains. DNA has lots of fem seeds crossed to fem seed, Holy Grail Kush comes to mind. og18 came from seed and so did kosher which created a all feminized seed cross. What im getting at is I see no difference fem or regular female genetics to breed with, its already been done and works either way. Every pack of feminized seeds where there was 2 different females in cross has been better then any regular seeds ive ever bought. Selfed females S1's, as in 1 female crossed to herself i have had bad luck with never being anywhere near as good as original mom.

I think your acessment on how chemdawg,og kush,sour diesel etc... came about, is probably accurate, but ask ANY major breeder who has worked with these genetics and the vast majority of them will tell you that those strains are very prone to hermie tendencies. All those mentioned strains originate from the same genetic stock. I have seen it myself. I'm not saying that those strains are not great strains...I am simply saying that somewhere along the line there was a unstable hermie prone gene and it still shows up here and there. Some might argue that it was that very stress induced pollen which you talk about that might be the culprit!! Big difference in stress induced pollen vs chemical induced reversal ( CS/STS) IMHO.

In my experience with breeding, if you start with well worked stable genetics that are NOT prone to hermie tendencies....your chances are pretty dam good that any resulting ceed you make will be free of hermie tendencies. The same is true if you breed with a strain that has been known to have hermie tendencies, chances are that somewhere down the line thats what your gonna see. As far as you noticing those fem crosses being better then the original regular seed ....well that may be the case for some fem crosses but cant be considered to be that way for all fem crosses. Reg ceed hybreed crosses are made everyday and in some cases you hit the jackpot...hybreed vigor represents itself very well but some turn out to be just so so. Thats just breeding for you....you never know how those genes are going to combine whether you are using fem ceed plants to cross or regular ceed . Like I said..you may hit one out of the park on one go around and strike out on the next go around!! Thats why breeders libraries dont have a ton of selection. The vast majority of breeding projects end up in file 13!!!

 

[booms111]

I totally agree that the chem/sour/og line is hermi prone but im saying if the original grower that accidently created these strains had used CS or STS the results would be the same hermi prone genetics. The original parents were hermi prone which would make the seeds hermi prone using any method of feminization.

With not knowing if your going to "hit one out of the park" with crosses id say if you have 2 females that you know are awesome that crossing them would give a better chance at" hitting one out of the park"...Take 2 tested 20%+ females and cross them and ill take that over what ANY breeders are putting out in regular seed form today.

 

[Bear Country]

I totally agree that the chem/sour/og line is hermi prone but im saying if the original grower that accidently created these strains had used CS or STS the results would be the same hermi prone genetics. The original parents were hermi prone which would make the seeds hermi prone using any method of feminization.

With not knowing if your going to "hit one out of the park" with crosses id say if you have 2 females that you know are awesome that crossing them would give a better chance at" hitting one out of the park"...Take 2 tested 20%+ females and cross them and ill take that over what ANY breeders are putting out in regular seed form today.

Agreed on all counts!! I do believe however that there are some pretty awesome regular hybreed crosses that are outstanding in thier own right.

 

[Jogro]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sx1gBAhd4nI&list=PL2K133wykM_sSApyyGiHoU11oV7SSpS4k about 1:50 in DNA explains there thoughts on fem seeds production.

In summary, they said the following:

-Every day people write them asking for regs and that's part of the reason they offered Kosher Kush in reg form.

-They like regs, and think they're good for traditional breeding, but the market largely demands fems right now. They think demand for regs will increase with time.

-They say its harder to make regs than fems, which is why they think regs should cost more, though they didn't specify how/why. Presumably its just because you have to do selections using male plants, and maintain males, which are two extra steps.

 

[Jogro]

ITake 2 tested 20%+ females and cross them and ill take that over what ANY breeders are putting out in regular seed form today.

See my signature for report on Williams Wonder. This isn't going to appeal to everyone, but not only has it been tested out at >20% THC, its a relatively stable inbred line available as regs, only, and relatively high yielding. Oh. . .and the line is at least 25 years old!

 

[booms111]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxWh7J12ry0 1minute in more recent info saying about male and how hes been around along time. They have plenty of interviews on youtube talking about there history and genetics.

WW is not to my standards and if your going by sickmeds advertised test its no where near accurate. All the sickmed green crap seeds ive started were the weakest genetics of 2012 and no where near 18%. Im personally into more skunky, fuelly, diesel, chemmy types...

 

[Jogro]

Subcool of TGA said on one of the Weed Nerd episodes that he has been approached numerous times to create feminized seeds and if he did he would become the top seller on Attitude Seeds.

The first thing I believe. . .I bet people ask him for fem beans every day.

The second thing. . .not so much. How can he possibly know what his volume would be like if he changed his business model?

Probably sales of fem beans would cannibalize sales of his reg beans at least to a great extent. No question he'd be selling more beans if he offered the choice of fems too, but I think trying to estimate possible volume this way is problematic.

He obviously declined but has already created his own niche in the industry but it is just another example of how companies respond to the market, that is how you survive running a business.

Niche is key.

Not specifically picking on Subcool here, but I think some of the breeders are emphasizing "reg only" just as a way to distinguish themselves from the mass production European breeders that do "fem only".

 

[Jogro]

WW is not to my standards and if your going by sickmeds advertised test its no where near accurate.

This is somewhat off topic, but presumably you're talking about "Williams Wonder".

Not having specified what your standards are or how this one fails to meet them, I can't comment on that. If you have zero tolerance for "nanas" late in flowering and demand particular flavor/scent profiles, then definitely, this one might not do it for you. But just because you don't like it, doesn't mean nobody else will.

In any case, I can assure you that if grown to its full potential, Williams Wonder is HIGHLY potent, as well as high yielding. You may not accept it, but Sickmeds' testing was done by a reputable third party European lab. Assuming you don't believe their published results, do you believe SCL labs in CA? They keep a public searchable database of test results.

Please don't take my word for it. Here's three separate grows from two separate growers of Williams Wonder, each testing out at over 22%THC:

http://www.scanalytical.com/sample-details.html?task=sample&sample=120808K028
http://www.scanalytical.com/sample-details.html?task=sample&sample=121130L008
http://www.scanalytical.com/sample-details.html?task=sample&sample=130108W075

If you search, there are several other tests at about 18% as well as one outlier at 9% which I chalk off as a bad grow.

Again, you may not like the strain, but if you'd check the numbers against others tested at the same lab, you'd see that Williams Wonder tests right up there with most of the diesels and OGs, and in my experience, it IS that strong (or at least CAN be).

All the sickmed green crap seeds ive started were the weakest genetics of 2012 and no where near 18%. Im personally into more skunky, fuelly, diesel, chemmy types...

So now, you're presumably talking about Sickmeds Green Crack S1. I'll add here that there are at least two other breeders who offer identical GCS1 beans for sale; Sickmeds doesn't have a monopoly on these, they just offer the same thing a bit cheaper than the others.

Personally, I really liked the mango-like scent/taste I got when growing this, but again, taste and flavor are questions of personal preference. Some people (oddly enough) don't think skunks or kerosene are GOOD smells! I don't think I've met anyone who said they DIDN'T like the mango/melon scent of GC, and this is one of several reasons its probably the single most popular "clone only" strain on the West Coast.

Like all S1s, pheno variation is an issue here, and I'm sure you can get various potency levels that way. I didn't have mine tested, but I'd guesstimate that the ones I grew were around 15% THC. That's not "award winning" potency, but it certainly isn't "weak", and qualitatively, it was more of a sativa-"up" type high than the usual kushes. In my opinion, the extra fast flowering time, excellent flavor/scent, and fantastic "bag appeal" made up for the medium potency. If you're not a daily smokers and don't need max potency, I think you should be pleased with this. Its a good enough choice for someone who wants to get some sense of what the clone only strain is like, but who can't get their hands on a clone. But to be clear, I never endorsed this for either consistency OR potency. If that's what you're after, you won't like this one.

 

[booms111]

sickmeds fanboy are we? Willams Wonder and Green Crack by SickMeds are NOT up to MY standard. The clone only of green crack is NOT what you get from sickmeds purple crappy green crack. Willams Wonder is 1 dimensional high from early 90's for me and it was OK then but wasnt as good as the widows, lights, skunks, ect back then. No offence to SickMeds(Red) or Joegrow but I personally dont care for either and around my area you would get stuck with both as know body would buy it.

 

[kona gold]

Its simple supply and demand, there is no grand scheme by breeders to rid the "common man" from high quality males. Seriously think about the logistics of trying to even attempt that, it makes absolutely no sense. I do like DNA, but they cater to many of the same customers as Barney's Farm and Greenhouse... i.e. inexperienced growers. Inexperienced growers often choose feminized seeds. Once again, supply and demand.

That is a small part of the reason.
I have been smoking since the 80ls and growning ans breeding since early 90's.....and i have seen many many growers, breeders and dealers.
The main personality trait i have run into, and despise with marijuana, is that people want to be "the man"! They want recognition, fame, and they wanr to claim like they are some kind of god!
So the reason they dont want to make regular seeds is ego.....simple but the truth! So they are not stoked when someone else has their genetics and is a better breeder/grower to do their strain better and win a cup!
Barney is the worst at this....he doesnt want anyone to have his good genetics. So he, and others, create inferior feminised seeds so we as breeders cant recreate their genes.
I was wanting their Dr. grinspoon in regs, as they were offered originally as regs, for breeding purposes. Just like the Tangerine Dream! He has the real genetics, but offers crap for the rest of us. Like his Acapulco Gold....doesnt even fit the description at all.
Look at Arjan from Greenhouse....they have chronic genetics guarenteed, but they only give people their weakest stuff! Why.....cause he is one of the most arrogant self proclaimed "king of cannabis"!!!!!
Get it folks.....most people who sell seeds or think they are the inventor of famous clone only stains are fucking assholes!!!! They think they are better than everyone.....but are sooooo insecure they want to make sure they stay"the man" that they will never give seeds out that will compromise their elite position!!!!!
It aint about supply and demand, as regs are always wanted!

 

[danky supreme]

^^^^Did you watch the youtube video where Don and Aaron talked about regs and fems? They said that 90% of their sales are from fems...supply and demand brah. I don't know why there is so much resistance to the idea that cannabis breeders respond to market demands. That is literally one of the most basic concepts in business and someone even posted a video of the DNA guys saying they push a heavy SUPPLY of fems because there is such a large DEMAND. And now that the DEMAND for regular kosher kush beans has increased they are creating a SUPPLY. Good god im just waiting for someone to tell me 2+2=5

 

[OGEvilgenius]

I realize fem seeds sell a lot more, but it'd be nice if they kept regular lines around too for us who want to preserve and/or create. Hopefully they'll do reups on them as they have some gear I want to get in regular seed form.

 

[Bad Karma]

Not exactly DNA, but DNA related, Reserva Privada (sister company to DNA), recently released Kosher Kush in regular seed form.
Although it's not much, at least it's some of their best genetics.

 

[Dr. Yo]

First off, I want to thank everyone who has replied to this thread. I always enjoy reading different viewpoints.


Like a few of the replies here, I'm more interested in breeding/replicating select phenotypes, phenotypes which work well in my geographic area and appeal to my personal preferences. I want to have a steady supply of seed available, while also preserving strains that are strong/tasty/smell pleasant/grow with preferable growth characteristics for long-term storage/future breeding projects.


The thing with DNA not offering regular seeds on their historically more popular strains has really frustrated me.


This notion that I should every couple months be a slave to the seed companies by being forced to continuously buy feminized seeds is somewhat emblematic of people in the 21st century: they're in a damn hurry to get results (feminized buds to harvest without worrying about seeds), and can't be bothered 'weeding' out males.


I guess I just don't get why everyone is just so cool with the idea of continuously sending hundreds of dollars every few months to a seedbank for more feminized seeds. Sure you could clone a strain you like off a dedicated mother infinitely, but sometimes it's not convenient or even possible to have a 24/7/365 growing operation running.


I guess that's why I respect seed breeders like TGA/Sensi seeds/Dutch Passion/Serious seeds/Nirvana/etc. They've always had regular seeds available for even their most popular and celebrated strains. And they're (supposedly/most likely) making good money selling strictly regular seeds.


I live in the United States, where even obtaining seeds could conceivably land you in jail, or at the very least, have your seeds seized.
Why should I or anyone else continue this cycle of constantly being at the mercy of seedbanks, while risking my personal freedom?


Seedbanks are there to make money I understand, and feminized seeds provide the easiest avenue to making money because just like a drug dealer, if their customers want more of their (feminized) product, they've gotta pay them to get it....each and every time.


Something about that just doesn't sit well with me.

 

[KushLyle]

It takes two to Tango. If the buyers are not looking for femmed seeds then no point for seedbanks to concentrate on selling feminized seeds.
Yes, they promote feminized seeds cos they can sell it at a higher price than regular seeds so bigger profit margin too.
In the end, it is the call of the buyer and we having more options is always preferable.

 

[Dr. Yo]

It takes two to Tango. If the buyers are not looking for femmed seeds then no point for seedbanks to concentrate on selling feminized seeds.
Yes, they promote feminized seeds cos they can sell it at a higher price than regular seeds so bigger profit margin too.
In the end, it is the call of the buyer and we having more options is always preferable.

That's what I don't get; in the last 5 years, have people gotten that much lazier that they just can't deal with male plants? Seems like there's been a paradigm shift sometime in the last 5 years where more and more seed companies are carrying exclusively feminized seeds.

Doesn't anyone have the inclination to make their own seed anymore? I guess everyone is growing for profit these days, and the sooner they can get the product harvested and out in the streets/Medical Marijuana clinics the more money in their pocket.

I know selection can be tricky, but from day 1, all I've ever wanted to be was self-sufficient and not dependent on an outside source for quality genetics. Once obtained, I'd like to have the preference to be able to continue the line on my own...if I'm skilled/savvy enough to breed a quality F1 from the source-beans.

 

[Jogro]

That's what I don't get; in the last 5 years, have people gotten that much lazier that they just can't deal with male plants? Seems like there's been a paradigm shift sometime in the last 5 years where more and more seed companies are carrying exclusively feminized seeds.

I think you are correct about the paradigm shift.

In Europe in particular, most growers are starting from se-eds and they're growing outdoors. If you're only growing a few plants outdoors, and you have to start from se-ed, its a major bummer to find out in say late July that your now 3-4 foot high plant is a male! This is one major reason why demand for fems is so much higher than demand for regs. If you're only going to put out one type of bean for a given line, from a business perspective, it makes sense to put out fems.

Doesn't anyone have the inclination to make their own seed anymore?

Plenty do. Go to it. . .what's stopping you?

Again, nobody is "forcing" anyone to buy anything. DNA isn't the only company with good genetics. If you want regs, buy them from someone else; there are plenty of good regs out there if you care to look for them.

I live in the United States, where even obtaining seeds could conceivably land you in jail, or at the very least, have your seeds seized.
Why should I or anyone else continue this cycle of constantly being at the mercy of seedbanks, while risking my personal freedom?

Well, the fact is, growing the plant provides FAR more legal risk and personal exposure than just obtaining the se-eds. That's not really the limiting factor. Also, compared to energy, nutrient, overhead, time and labor costs, the costs of the actual beans represent just a modest portion of overall grow costs. Bean costs can be spread out over multiple grows too, just by taking clones!

But anyway, see above. I don't see how DNA selling only fems is in any way stopping you from making your own beans or being self-sufficient, if that's what you want to do. If you don't want to buy beans, then don't.

I don't see why you do, but if you just "have to" have ONLY DNA genetics, you can still use their feminized plants as parents. Either make F1s between their fem plants and your regs, or even (if you are so bold!), reverse one of their fems to make feminized pollen and then make your own feminized F1s.

 

[Kevinvancouver]

how do you cross two females? Where does the pollen come from?

 

[ItsIntheGenectics]

The pollen comes from the female which has been turned to have male sacks.

 

[booms111]

how do you cross two females? Where does the pollen come from?

You spray the female with colloidal silver or STS. CS you spray everyday 2x for 2weeks before and 2weeks into bloom and STS is a 1 and done spray but more of a harsh chemical. Both are easy to do. The female forms male clusters and produces feminized pollen. Collect pollen apply a different female and you have fem seeds.