Coronavirus treatment options and the impact on public policy

Fogdog · May 18, 2020

DIY-HP-LED said:
Anti vaxers depend on one self confessed scientific fraud and a single fraudulent study.

Have a look around the web there are plenty of people touting things and I'm sure all the heath and nutrition sites will have the latest studies on Covid-19 and Vitamin D, are they wrong to do so? Are regular media wrong in reporting these findings in a responsible way? Can most normal people call their own balls and strikes about their own health based on reliable information? The two most recent things I posted on this thread about vitamin D were from reliable original sources and are evidence, but not considered proof, that requires a higher standard and takes time. However the implications of the evidence are profound in the current situation and has the potential to save many thousands of lives by addressing deficiencies in the population, particularly among minorities. In such circumstances to err on the side of caution by testing and supplementing vulnerable populations might be a good thing, public education would not hurt either. It's an area that needs urgent study IMHO and perhaps urgent action as well, its up to the public health Gods.

Locally the shelves have been almost cleaned out of vitamin D from a few weeks back, so somebody is getting the message and not from me except for family and friends..

Actually, anti-vaxxers depend on loosely gathered and poorly run studies similar to the ones you post about vitamin D, hydroxychloroquinone and other woo-woo sciency bs that you post to make you seem knowlegeable.

This is not criticism, post away, it's just that your kind of fake science is exactly what antivaxxeres and climate science deniers do. They pull up some old worn out studies that really aren't very well reviewed and tout it as a reason for their psuedo-religious beliefs. I'm so glad that you've liberated me from exhaustive and carefully done research. It's so much easier to pull up stuff from the web!!!

I mean, what does the director of the NIH know?

Study Finds No Benefit for Dietary Supplements

More than half of U.S. adults take dietary supplements [1]. I don’t, but some of my family members do. But does popping all of these vitamins, minerals, and other substances really lead to a longer…

directorsblog.nih.gov

Based on an analysis of survey data gathered from more than 27,000 people over a six-year period, the NIH-funded study found that individuals who reported taking dietary supplements had about the same risk of dying as those who got their nutrients through food. What’s more, the mortality benefits associated with adequate intake of vitamin A, vitamin K, magnesium, zinc, and copper were limited to food consumption.

There are those who say that a person is able to make enough vitamin D just by being outside and letting their skin make it. BUT, we don't have to go outside, we can just take vitamin D and that's enough, just like you say. After all, it's Vitamin D and not a healthy lifestyle that includes walks outside that makes a person immune to coronavirus right?

There are people who say a good diet is all one needs to get enough of nutrients. But what do they know?

DIY-HP-LED · May 18, 2020

Fogdog said:
is exactly what antivaxxeres and climate science deniers do. They pull up some old worn out studies that really aren't very well reviewed and tout it as a reason for their psuedo-religious beliefs. I'm so glad that you've liberated me from exhaustive and carefully done research. It's so much easier to pull up stuff from the web!!!

These studies are quite recent and done by teams of highly qualified people, I addressed their limitations in my posts, but most importantly they are being taken seriously as a causative factor by experts in the field and have spurred further research. My and your opinion about such matters ain't worth shit in the final analysis.

Constructive criticism is welcome, most of my posts of come with preambles and cautions, are designed to stimulate discussion and often concern topics in the news and on websites anyway. Having someone looking over my shoulder is useful and imposes discipline, just like regular science.

Here's a good tip:
The pre print papers I sometimes post have comment sections where other peers point out errors and flaws in the studies, it a good place to start.

Point out the limitations of the studies and try not to impugn the motives of the researchers too much unless it's obvious. If I draw different conclusions from a study and it's broader implications, point it out, feel free to disagree (yer good at that!). If I make an error point it out too, science is about discovering the truth, not winning arguments, accurate information is good information. Also bear in mind the standards of evidence for the medical profession can be somewhat looser in desperate times than in normal ones, I don't make the calls the doctors do.

Remember though, the primary focus is not medical or even scientific, it's the impact of these dynamic factors on public policy in the weeks and months ahead, this is the politics section after all. Dr Fauci's question remains, "How many deaths are you willing to accept"? This is obviously a moral and ethical question, as well as a pragmatic one, it is for each of us to decide in the end.

Fogdog · May 18, 2020

DIY-HP-LED said:
These studies are quite recent and done by teams of highly qualified people, I addressed their limitations in my posts, but most importantly they are being taken seriously as a causative factor by experts in the field and have spurred further research. My and your opinion about such matters ain't worth shit in the final analysis.

Constructive criticism is welcome, most of my posts of come with preambles and cautions, are designed to stimulate discussion and often concern topics in the news and on websites anyway. Having someone looking over my shoulder is useful and imposes discipline, just like regular science.

Here's a good tip:
The pre print papers I sometimes post have comment sections where other peers point out errors and flaws in the studies, it a good place to start.

Point out the limitations of the studies and try not to impugn the motives of the researchers too much unless it's obvious. If I draw different conclusions from a study and it's broader implications, point it out, feel free to disagree (yer good at that!). If I make an error point it out too, science is about discovering the truth, not winning arguments, accurate information is good information. Also bear in mind the standards of evidence for the medical profession can be somewhat looser in desperate times than in normal ones, I don't make the calls the doctors do.

Remember though, the primary focus is not medical or even scientific, it's the impact of these dynamic factors on public policy in the weeks and months ahead, this is the politics section after all. Dr Fauci's question remains, "How many deaths are you willing to accept"? This is obviously a moral and ethical question, as well as a pragmatic one, it is for each of us to decide in the end.

What about Selenium? There are plenty of papers that tout it as just as effective as vitamin D to fight coronavirus.

This is all so very interesting.

What do you think they meant when they wrote this?

Can Vitamin D Lower Your Risk of COVID-19?

You may wonder whether supplementing with vitamin D may help reduce your risk of contracting the new coronavirus that causes COVID-19. This article explains how vitamin D affects immune health.

www.healthline.com

It’s important to note that there’s currently no cure for COVID-19 and no preventive measures other than physical distancing, also known as social distancing, and proper hygiene practices can protect you from developing this disease.

I choose to overlook that because it's so much more interesting to think that I can take a pill that keeps me safe from Covid-19

DIY-HP-LED · May 18, 2020

Fogdog said:
What about Selenium? There are plenty of papers that tout it as just as effective as vitamin D to fight coronavirus.

This is all so very interesting.

What do you think they meant when they wrote this?

Can Vitamin D Lower Your Risk of COVID-19?

You may wonder whether supplementing with vitamin D may help reduce your risk of contracting the new coronavirus that causes COVID-19. This article explains how vitamin D affects immune health.

www.healthline.com

It’s important to note that there’s currently no cure for COVID-19 and no preventive measures other than physical distancing, also known as social distancing, and proper hygiene practices can protect you from developing this disease.

I choose to overlook that because it's so much more interesting to think that I can take a pill that keeps me safe from Covid-19

I never read that article and generally stay away from such sites, I mentioned them to you earlier, I try to post from original, reliable sources, the papers when I can find or access them.

Have there been any credible studies done on the efficacy demonstrated by selenium for treating or mitigating it's worse effects of covid -19? Specifically covid -19? Have they stimulated further research? Are these studies being taken seriously by experts and having an impact, before even randomised trials are completed? Some questions I would ask

The preliminary results of studies of Vitamin D levels on Covid -19 outcomes are extraordinary by any standards, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence as you know, and this one will get the full treatment. The data also seems to agree with the mortality rates among minorities and the vitamin D levels appear to be a causative factor along with chronic deficiency causing or contributing to many comorbidities these ethnic groups face, in higher latitudes, IMHO.

Fogdog · May 18, 2020

DIY-HP-LED said:
I never read that article and generally stay away from such sites, I mentioned them to you earlier, I try to post from original, reliable sources, the papers when I can find or access them.

Have there been any credible studies done on the efficacy demonstrated by selenium for treating or mitigating it's worse effects of covid -19? Specifically covid -19? Have they stimulated further research? Are these studies being taken seriously by experts and having an impact, before even randomised trials are completed? Some questions I would ask

The preliminary results of studies of Vitamin D levels on Covid -19 outcomes are extraordinary by any standards, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence as you know, and this one will get the full treatment. The data also seems to agree with the mortality rates among minorities and the vitamin D levels appear to be a causative factor along with chronic deficiency causing or contributing to many comorbidities these ethnic groups face, in higher latitudes, IMHO.

The same kind of disclaimers are in the articles you post. It's so interesting.

Very short daily exposure to the sun provides enough vitamin D. So, by taking vitamin D, one can ignore the advice of getting outside and getting execise? How is vitamin D from a pill better than what a person makes for themselves? Why is it better to take a pill than to get outside for some exercise?

This is all so very interesting.

Fogdog · May 18, 2020

DIY-HP-LED said:
I never read that article and generally stay away from such sites, I mentioned them to you earlier, I try to post from original, reliable sources, the papers when I can find or access them.

Have there been any credible studies done on the efficacy demonstrated by selenium for treating or mitigating it's worse effects of covid -19? Specifically covid -19? Have they stimulated further research? Are these studies being taken seriously by experts and having an impact, before even randomised trials are completed? Some questions I would ask

The preliminary results of studies of Vitamin D levels on Covid -19 outcomes are extraordinary by any standards, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence as you know, and this one will get the full treatment. The data also seems to agree with the mortality rates among minorities and the vitamin D levels appear to be a causative factor along with chronic deficiency causing or contributing to many comorbidities these ethnic groups face, in higher latitudes, IMHO.

Why just focus on vitamin D? I mean all these are touted in exactly the same way, which is,

1) say there isn't anything that can protect against Covid
2) say immunity is important
3) post a list of supplements that are associated with a healthy immune system
4) pictures!!!

Such as this:

6 Best Vitamins and Supplements for Respiratory Infections: Improve Your Immunity - Unlocking Insights - Explore Our Articles

Discover the best supplements to support your immune system against respiratory infections. Read our guide and discover those that are scientifically proven.

blog.insidetracker.com

Isn't science wonderful?

DIY-HP-LED · May 18, 2020

Fogdog said:
Why just focus on vitamin D? I mean all these are touted in exactly the same way, which is,

1) say there isn't anything that can protect against Covid
2) say immunity is important
3) post a list of supplements that are associated with a healthy immune system
4) pictures!!!

Such as this:

6 Best Vitamins and Supplements for Respiratory Infections: Improve Your Immunity - Unlocking Insights - Explore Our Articles

Discover the best supplements to support your immune system against respiratory infections. Read our guide and discover those that are scientifically proven.

blog.insidetracker.com

View attachment 4569634

View attachment 4569635

View attachment 4569636

Isn't science wonderful?

Looks like general good health advice for the most part, there are whole industries built on a foundation of bullshit as you well know. I used to do strength training for a while and delved into the world of supplements and protein powders, a real eye opener and that's just one small aspect of the health, fitness and never grow old and die industry.

Everybody wants the seal of science, its the new "faith", but few understand their faith.

I'll quote respected expert opinion on vitamin D, if there is any significance to my little pet theory (we all have them fess up!), they should be quite enthusiastic, but of course will qualify what they say and explain the evidence base, but the evidence base for an opinion is different than one for a treatment or even public health advice. Advising supplementation won't be hard for many experts, based on the available evidence and the potential downsides, the compulsion of compassion is a strong motivator in such people.

Like I said, a really big potential upside on this one, especially for minorities and very little potential downside, sunshine is free and supplements dirt cheap, available and safe. There are reports of toxicity in some people at 4000 IUs, mostly minor complaints, though some people seem to tolerate very high dosages. Most expert medical opinion, not the RDA's it seems to be evolving to around 1,000 to 2,000 U's a day, which is what many doctors take for themselves and families.

captainmorgan · May 18, 2020

I've been taking selenium for years, very important for good health. The soil in my state has very low selenium so it needs to be supplemented, it's so low that many farm animals in the state have problems if they don't get it added to their diet.

captainmorgan · May 18, 2020

I won't be taking the tRUmp vaccine, you would have to be a fool to trust it.

HHS secretary says Trump's 'Warp Speed' vaccine 'may not be safe and effective but we'll have it'

Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar on Sunday admitted that the Trump administration's so-called "Warp Speed" vaccine effort could produce hundreds of millions of doses that are neither safe nor effective.Azar made the remarks during an appearance on Face the Nation with host Margaret...

www.rawstory.com

Fogdog · May 18, 2020

exactly

DIY-HP-LED said:
Looks like general good health advice for the most part, there are whole industries built on a foundation of bullshit as you well know. I used to do strength training for a while and delved into the world of supplements and protein powders, a real eye opener and that's just one small aspect of the health, fitness and never grow old and die industry.

Everybody wants the seal of science, its the new "faith", but few understand their faith.

I'll quote respected expert opinion on vitamin D, if there is any significance to my little pet theory (we all have them fess up!), they should be quite enthusiastic, but of course will qualify what they say and explain the evidence base, but the evidence base for an opinion is different than one for a treatment or even public health advice. Advising supplementation won't be hard for many experts, based on the available evidence and the potential downsides, the compulsion of compassion is a strong motivator in such people.

Like I said, a really big potential upside on this one, especially for minorities and very little potential downside, sunshine is free and supplements dirt cheap, available and safe. There are reports of toxicity in some people at 4000 IUs, mostly minor complaints, though some people seem to tolerate very high dosages. Most expert medical opinion, not the RDA's it seems to be evolving to around 1,000 to 2,000 U's a day, which is what many doctors take for themselves and families.

"seems to be evolving".

Lulz

Fogdog · May 18, 2020

captainmorgan said:
I won't be taking the tRUmp vaccine, you would have to be a fool to trust it.

HHS secretary says Trump's 'Warp Speed' vaccine 'may not be safe and effective but we'll have it'

Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar on Sunday admitted that the Trump administration's so-called "Warp Speed" vaccine effort could produce hundreds of millions of doses that are neither safe nor effective.Azar made the remarks during an appearance on Face the Nation with host Margaret...

www.rawstory.com

“We’re going to scale up commercial manufacturing and produce hundreds of millions of doses at risk. They may not pan out, they may not prove to be safe and effective but we’ll have it so we can begin administration right away.”

Huh?

DIY-HP-LED · May 18, 2020

captainmorgan said:
I've been taking selenium for years, very important for good health. The soil in my state has very low selenium so it needs to be supplemented, it's so low that many farm animals in the state have problems if they don't get it added to their diet.

A lot of our diets are from out of state these days, but it's useful info to know for your region and something to look out for. Many of the RDA's (Recommended Daily Allowances)were based on the effects of gross deficiency and not optimal health, also many studies used 20 year old college students, wanna do a study, grab a few students! We all grow less efficient at metabolising nutrients in general as we age and a 70 year old man photosynthesises far less vitamin D from sunshine than a 20 year old for instance.

I figure between our geographically diverse diet from many sources and a good multivitamin supplement, it shouldn't be too much of an issue unless one eats local grown a lot and even then the critters and crops are supplemented.

Fogdog · May 18, 2020

captainmorgan said:
I've been taking selenium for years, very important for good health. The soil in my state has very low selenium so it needs to be supplemented, it's so low that many farm animals in the state have problems if they don't get it added to their diet.

Yes,

When a person knows they are low in a nutrient, it makes sense to take a supplement for it. Or when, as you point out, if your area is naturally low in a nutrient such as selenium, it makes sense.

The statement made by DIY of taking unnatural levels of a normally available nutrient with the expectation that it will protect against covid is where I struggle to maintain control of "fist of death"

Not saying everybody, but practically everyone gets all they need from a diet that includes an assortment of fresh vegetables, fresh fruit, some starch and a little protein. Also, a half an hour of walking or other time outside and at least some regular exercise is normally all practically everybody needs. Keep weight in normal range, don't smoke, rarely if ever drink alcohol, stay away from recreational drugs. 2/3 of this country is either over weight or obese. More benefit can be gained by people following those guidelines and losing weight than ever can be helped by large doses of vitamin D.

Was it you that mentioned the use of dried persimmons as an herbal supplement? I read the paper and found it interesting. I'm all for research in this area. The press, on the other hand are not reliable.

DIY-HP-LED · May 18, 2020

captainmorgan said:
I won't be taking the tRUmp vaccine, you would have to be a fool to trust it.

HHS secretary says Trump's 'Warp Speed' vaccine 'may not be safe and effective but we'll have it'

Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar on Sunday admitted that the Trump administration's so-called "Warp Speed" vaccine effort could produce hundreds of millions of doses that are neither safe nor effective.Azar made the remarks during an appearance on Face the Nation with host Margaret...

www.rawstory.com

They are starting a trial of an attenuated or dead virus (I believe) from China here in Canada in my backyard in fact, I'm equally skeptical! Not to sure I wanna grow a set of horns or something! Ya don't cut corners on vaccine safety, remember the Klingons fucked up their foreheads on startrek doing something like that! Trump calls yer vaccine effort "Warpspeed", where no man has gone before...

DIY-HP-LED · May 18, 2020

Fogdog said:
The statement made by DIY of taking unnatural levels of a normally available nutrient with the expectation that it will protect against covid is where I struggle to maintain control of "fist of death"

I was curious about this issue about vitamin d, covid-19 and doctors, so I did a google news search, I never went through the results yet, but I'll post it anyway About 756,000 results.

doctors covid-19 vitamin d - Google Search

Budley Doright · May 18, 2020

I’ve been supplementing my diet with Crown Royal and I’m virus free ...... should I publish a paper? Also I’m about to fill my belly with fresh wild leeks, fiddle heads and fresh lake trout ...... yay!

DIY-HP-LED · May 18, 2020

Here is a recent one from off the top, notice they mention they were correlation studies, they mention another one that I have not posted here too that found this correlation, there have been several now, it's causing a stir and motivating further study.

In the battle with COVID-19, hype about Vitamin D is entirely unhealthy

Although Donald Trump’s suggestion that we give bleach injections a shot received the lion’s share of attention at his infamous April 23 “news” conference, let’s not forget he also floated

www.ourwindsor.ca

In the battle with COVID-19, hype about Vitamin D is entirely unhealthy

Although Donald Trump’s suggestion that we give bleach injections a shot received the lion’s share of attention at his infamous April 23 “news” conference, let’s not forget he also floated the idea of finding a way to get UV rays into our bodies, based on his notion that the sun killed SARS-CoV-2.

As original as his theories may seem, neither was entirely new. We’ve covered drinking bleach in this space before and articles touting the healing power of the sun (and vitamin D) in relation to COVID-19 have been circulating online for months. And a recently released study from Northwestern University that found a correlation between populations with high vitamin D levels and better COVID-19 outcomes (a.k.a. lower mortality) is likely to prompt even more articles urging people to take daily supplements.

Before we go any further, though, there is absolutely no evidence to support the idea that vitamin D has therapeutic value for people infected with or exposed to the virus. Supplementing the sunshine vitamin may well be a good idea for a lot of Canadians, especially those over 65 and/or people who don’t get outside during daylight hours who have spoken to their physicians about supplementation. Vitamin D levels are important for optimal health, but there’s no data to support it can do anything for COVID-19.

The reason it’s too soon to jump on the D bandwagon is that, as the Northwestern study’s lead researcher Dr. Vadim Backman points out, correlation isn’t causation. A population with high vitamin D levels could be an indication of people who follow medical advice closely and, as such, also exercise regularly and eat well. Maybe it was the exercise that did it. Or the fresh veggies. The researchers don’t know if vitamin D is the reason. They weren’t even looking for it. They were just looking for broad patterns to explain discrepancies in outcomes in various regions.

“I’m not a vitamin D researcher. We didn’t even think about vitamin D, frankly, it was just one of the things that came out in the data,” says Backman, a professor of biomedical engineering. “And vitamin D as a medicine induces very — I wouldn’t say polarizing — but almost, embedded opinions in some people who study it one way or the other.”

So why are we starting to hear a lot about D in connection with COVID-19? Part of the reason is that some of those “embedded opinions” are held by a camp of grassroots health gurus and doctors who tend to view vitamin D as a cure for everything. It’s sort of understandable, given that sunshine is associated with happiness, brightness and better days — and, of course, is important to human health. Vitamin D, which we synthesize from exposure to the sun, does help us absorb calcium (and other minerals), which means it’s a key piece for bone health — a fact discovered in the 1920s as researchers tackled rickets, a childhood bone disease.

Since then, researchers have investigated its potential as a therapeutic agent for a range of things, including, most recently, as a potential anti-inflammatory. And, since COVID-19 appears to sometimes trigger an exaggerated inflammatory response that does damage to the body, vitamin D boosters are positioning it as a possible tool in the fight.
more...

Fogdog · May 18, 2020

DIY-HP-LED said:
I was curious about this issue about vitamin d, covid-19 and doctors, so I did a google news search, I never went through the results yet, but I'll post it anyway About 756,000 results.

doctors covid-19 vitamin d - Google Search

Only 756,000 results? Why hold "yerself" back? You never have before.

Fogdog · May 18, 2020

DIY-HP-LED said:
Here is a recent one from off the top, notice they mention they were correlation studies, they mention another one that I have not posted here too that found this correlation, there have been several now, it's causing a stir and motivating further study.

In the battle with COVID-19, hype about Vitamin D is entirely unhealthy

Although Donald Trump’s suggestion that we give bleach injections a shot received the lion’s share of attention at his infamous April 23 “news” conference, let’s not forget he also floated

www.ourwindsor.ca

In the battle with COVID-19, hype about Vitamin D is entirely unhealthy

Although Donald Trump’s suggestion that we give bleach injections a shot received the lion’s share of attention at his infamous April 23 “news” conference, let’s not forget he also floated the idea of finding a way to get UV rays into our bodies, based on his notion that the sun killed SARS-CoV-2.

As original as his theories may seem, neither was entirely new. We’ve covered drinking bleach in this space before and articles touting the healing power of the sun (and vitamin D) in relation to COVID-19 have been circulating online for months. And a recently released study from Northwestern University that found a correlation between populations with high vitamin D levels and better COVID-19 outcomes (a.k.a. lower mortality) is likely to prompt even more articles urging people to take daily supplements.

Before we go any further, though, there is absolutely no evidence to support the idea that vitamin D has therapeutic value for people infected with or exposed to the virus. Supplementing the sunshine vitamin may well be a good idea for a lot of Canadians, especially those over 65 and/or people who don’t get outside during daylight hours who have spoken to their physicians about supplementation. Vitamin D levels are important for optimal health, but there’s no data to support it can do anything for COVID-19.

The reason it’s too soon to jump on the D bandwagon is that, as the Northwestern study’s lead researcher Dr. Vadim Backman points out, correlation isn’t causation. A population with high vitamin D levels could be an indication of people who follow medical advice closely and, as such, also exercise regularly and eat well. Maybe it was the exercise that did it. Or the fresh veggies. The researchers don’t know if vitamin D is the reason. They weren’t even looking for it. They were just looking for broad patterns to explain discrepancies in outcomes in various regions.

“I’m not a vitamin D researcher. We didn’t even think about vitamin D, frankly, it was just one of the things that came out in the data,” says Backman, a professor of biomedical engineering. “And vitamin D as a medicine induces very — I wouldn’t say polarizing — but almost, embedded opinions in some people who study it one way or the other.”

So why are we starting to hear a lot about D in connection with COVID-19? Part of the reason is that some of those “embedded opinions” are held by a camp of grassroots health gurus and doctors who tend to view vitamin D as a cure for everything. It’s sort of understandable, given that sunshine is associated with happiness, brightness and better days — and, of course, is important to human health. Vitamin D, which we synthesize from exposure to the sun, does help us absorb calcium (and other minerals), which means it’s a key piece for bone health — a fact discovered in the 1920s as researchers tackled rickets, a childhood bone disease.

Since then, researchers have investigated its potential as a therapeutic agent for a range of things, including, most recently, as a potential anti-inflammatory. And, since COVID-19 appears to sometimes trigger an exaggerated inflammatory response that does damage to the body, vitamin D boosters are positioning it as a possible tool in the fight.
more...

there is absolutely no evidence to support the idea that vitamin D has therapeutic value for people infected with or exposed to the virus.

lulz, and yet, here you are, posting away.

Honey, I've read, is great for boosting immunity, therefore, honey is great for protecting from covid.

Budley Doright · May 18, 2020

Fogdog said:
Only 756,000 results? Why hold "yerself" back? You never have before.

! Jesus Christ Fog!!!! LOL.....DIY you really need to go fishing or something man!!!! Get out and enjoy that east coast shit.

Coronavirus treatment options and the impact on public policy

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