Dry Ice Winterizing

Whos done it? How did you like it? Thinking about trying it to get away from using a second solvent.

I don't get it?...how does dry ice eliminate the use of a second solvent...you just trying to cool of your etoh faster or colder or what

yaa. what? do you expect to take done oil , and winterize it with dry ice? so lets say,, the plant waxes just seep out???

im lostttt

you blast straight into a mason jar instead of a pyrex dish. after your done blasting, you wrap a coffee filter over the mason jar and use rubber band to hold it on. after that you place the mason jar in a cooler full of dry ice, and from there it freezes more alot of the lipids and fas and the shit that we dont want together and you pour it through the coffee filter which catches all that shit into a pyrex dish and continue to vac it. Have you ever done a run and seen what looks like shit floating in your oil. its supposed to freeze all that shit together and then gets caught in the coffee filter.

I dont know if it makes sense on how im explaining it, but its just a different method of dewaxing/winterizing your shit.

Nah...check out my explanation of winterizing in "what is a purge"....freezing the butane won't decrease the waxes solubility enough for this to have the desired effect......

qwizoking said:

Nah...check out my explanation of winterizing in "what is a purge"....freezing the butane won't decrease the waxes solubility enough for this to have the desired effect......

Click to expand...

i understand the entire concept of winterizing. i just do not want to use a secondary solvent. a few buddies of mine use this method im just trying to ge some different point of views on it. i dont need help on what is a purge, i wouldnt be asking about solventless winterizing if i couldnt even get to the point of winterizing with ethyl alchol.

also its not nessecarly freezing the butane, its more of freezing the lipids and fats and other crap together so when you run it through the filter it all catches as one big piece.

Here this is why it won't work....since you didn't want to check the page...there's a lot of info not on a purge in that thread.....
winterizing removes the fats,waxes and other lipophillic (fat loving)compounds. What makes them lipophillic or hydrophillic is based on polarity... butane is non polar (lipophillic) ethanol and iso are relatively polar, meaning they won't allow lipophillic substances...

Solubility is largely based on polarity and temp. so if you heat the polar ethanol or iso it will absorb the extract left from a butane wash. After freezing it the solubility of the waxes and fats decreases. These lipophillic non polar waxes precipitate as a solidout of the solution. It can then be filtered

The waxes and fats removed make up the harshness and congestive properties smoked hash oil can sometimes bring. This process does not remove terpenes and will drastically increase the quality of a butane(non polar) extract... if you start with an isoor etoh wash its not as necessary and shatter can easily be produced using a single polar wash.. iso in the middle of butane and ethanol polarity wise giving the best extract only using asingle wash......but for compounds such as thca and precursory cannabinoids to move about the plant (as well as all compounds within the plant) they must be relatively polar. Because of this iso or etohcan extract a dirty product if left in solvent too long....which is why a long soak in butane that's allowed to pull every last cannabinoid and wax/fat. And then winterized to remove the wax/fats will give a better yield of quality product than iso or etoh.

Fats and waxes are highly lipophillic. For a compound to have drug likeness it must be polar to aslight degree(allowing crossing of the blood brain barrier and to be soluble in the blood).. this slight polarity helps keep them in the ethanol as all cannabinoids have a hydroxyl group when the also lipophillic fats get pulled, the fats and waxes are also larger heavier compounds which hinders solubility. winterizing is how commercial perfume/essential oils are made, and if done properly will not harm the flavor, though Ishould mention the waxes and fats pulled often are somewhat fragrant.. It should be noted thc itself is an aromatic monoterpene, anything affecting flavor effects potency. I do all my extracts in the dark and under 70 degrees even in the purge. 75 degrees or so is when lighter terpenes began to volatize into the air (Ialso dry/cure at 70 or under for this reason)

polarity is relative, butane does not have a polar hydroxyl group -oh while iso and etoh do . This is responsible for iso's high boiling point, even though its molecular weight is very similar to butane. and why water boils at amuch higher temp, being muchlighter than butane or iso. Hydrogen bonding is the strongest intra molecular force. Imfs are what determine solubility. Their is no defining line between polar and non polar. Its how polar or non polar. To find out,the biggest clue is molecular structure. ch bonds are non polar making hexane with more carbon a better non polar solvent. These hydrocarbon solvents lack the polar hydroxyl group that water iso and ever clear have.. but for them to hold cannabinoids in suspension and dissolve them they must also have anon polar side, which is why you can't winterize in water...likewise You can't winterize in a completely non polar solvent either. Iso is actually quite non polar, so is ethanol. Look at a ph index polar water is 9iso somewhere around 4 etoh 6and butane 0.. this is just an estimate off memory.. Etoh is best, iso will work butane will not. This is because of the waxes increasing solubility in the non polar solvents.

Basically what I'm saying is...freezing butane ain't gonna precipitate shit...and realistically the cannabinoids would fall out first being more polar unlike the frozen butane and they are relatively heavy compounds

Maybe you do it differently; but ime when blasting (Butane) there isn't much left in the container than the wanted residue. If I was to freeze that right away there would be nothing liquid to strain out.

and i'm sure qk made a very good point but i'm too medicated to read that; and Duck Dynasty just came on.

Lol.... well I like your point as well.. and its shorter

there was a guy that was trying to sell his sub-zero extraction tubes based on that same idea.... he could never back anything up.. hold on ill dig for his thread, i think he got his ass handed to him not sure

i cant find it i really looked....

so the question that stumped him was, paraffin wax and plant waxes are very very similar in some butane they add this to help keep everything lubricated on the inside of the lighter. when butane is released it is at these very subzero temps. why is it that the paraffin wax doesnt collect and clog the butane can when the idea is that the cold temps will make the plant wax fall out. i even got him to admit that it would still need to be washed to be a real absolute.

Twitch. said:

i cant find it i really looked....

so the question that stumped him was, paraffin wax and plant waxes are very very similar in some butane they add this to help keep everything lubricated on the inside of the lighter. when butane is released it is at these very subzero temps. why is it that the paraffin wax doesnt collect and clog the butane can when the idea is that the cold temps will make the plant wax fall out. i even got him to admit that it would still need to be washed to be a real absolute.

Click to expand...

They don't add paraffin, it occurs naturally in butane and just hasn't been removed by all the xxxxx refining. It is and has to be in very low parts per millionth, or it will clog the fine orifices of butane lighters.

It can be removed ahead of time using vacuum fractional distillation, or afterwards using winterization.

QWIZO u sound like you really know your stuff, a lot more than me that is for sure. I just started using dry ice today with butane (sub zero F temp) only and I have to say it really works. I got rock hard shatter with butane only (no EtOH winterization!). I don't know if this can truly be called "winterization" in the sense that fats are precipitating to be filtered. I think what is actually happening is that at sub-zero temperatures, thc dissolves more readily while lipids/fats/etc do not. Either way, I don't know how or why it works, I just know that my old tech used 40F+ butane and resulted in a product that was slightly soft (like a starburst candy), while now my new tech (>0F butane) yields a product that is solid and snaps at room temp.

Btw Twitch., I just discovered sub-zero extractors earlier today and I thought it was an interesting coincidence to be running into that name for a second time today. The reason I was looking into their products today is because they are the only people I know of that make a dry ice sleeve, to achieve the results I just described. I don't think wrapping an extraction column with dry ice is nearly as effective as pre-cooling the butane to those temps, but if colder is better(it has been for me!), I think there is some merit in their products.

No matter your methodology, using a completely non polar solvent will prefer to pick up a completely non polar compound...like dissolves like, it will not only absorb thc, which is more polar than the waxes and fats, it will not even prefer the thc over the compounds more soluble in butane............a good extract will yield shatter, winterized or not, but it is harder to do with butane than iso or etoh..and that doesn't mean its an equal product. after winterizing, that same shatter will be a whole different creature

*slaps face* the owner of the company even said you need a secondary solvent to get a true absolute, i said this to someone else before just because you can see thru it doesn't mean it doesnt contain stil 20 precent fats waxes or lipids

put your shit in some everclear in the freezer for a day and look at what will fall out.....

qwizoking said:

No matter your methodology, using a completely non polar solvent will prefer to pick up a completely non polar compound...like dissolves like, it will not only absorb thc, which is more polar than the waxes and fats, it will not even prefer the thc over the compounds more soluble in butane............a good extract will yield shatter, winterized or not, but it is harder to do with butane than iso or etoh..and that doesn't mean its an equal product. after winterizing, that same shatter will be a whole different creature

Click to expand...

i dont know how many times we are going to have to say this to people....

I don't understand why people trip about a "second solvent" when the second solvent is cleaner than the first solvent...everclear is "food grade" solvent no? Seems silly to worry bout that when ur smokin bho

qwizoking said:

Solubility is largely based on polarity and temp.

polarity is relative, butane does not have a polar hydroxyl group -oh while iso and etoh do . This is responsible for iso's high boiling point, even though its molecular weight is very similar to butane. and why water boils at amuch higher temp, being muchlighter than butane or iso. Hydrogen bonding is the strongest intra molecular force. Imfs are what determine solubility. Their is no defining line between polar and non polar. Its how polar or non polar. To find out,the biggest clue is molecular structure. ch bonds are non polar making hexane with more carbon a better non polar solvent. These hydrocarbon solvents lack the polar hydroxyl group that water iso and ever clear have.. but for them to hold cannabinoids in suspension and dissolve them they must also have anon polar side, which is why you can't winterize in water...likewise You can't winterize in a completely non polar solvent either. Iso is actually quite non polar, so is ethanol. Look at a ph index polar water is 9iso somewhere around 4 etoh 6and butane 0.. this is just an estimate off memory.. Etoh is best, iso will work butane will not. This is because of the waxes increasing solubility in the non polar solvents.

Click to expand...

great read qwiso