long time grower thinking about switching to LEDs

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themaincola2020

Member
I am considering starting a new 6 light grow and considering switching two 8 light rooms, from Gavita Pro (double ended) 1000watt lights to the new Gavita LED 1700E (drawing roughly 640watts)

Pacific North West (cold winters, hot summers, legal grows)


the new room: basement 6.5'ceilings, 17'x10'

this seems like the perfect application for LEDs. Low ceilings (6.5') home owner wants to be as environmentally friendly as possible. lower plant numbers (18-48 flowering, and another round in veg)

looking to set up an application to maximize yields and speed.

I have ten years experience growing but always soil.
I already have a million plastic pots (with holes at bottom) that i use to use as my finishing pots and hand water (sub pump, hose with water wand) in saucers.

but i am tempted to try a hydroponic setup here with the LEDs. A traditional ventilation system as I assume owner will not want to use C02.. 6 of the new LEDs which would draw under 4000watts and produce a lot less heat,,, maybe enough to still have nice runs in the summer.. room stays cooler, so water chillers won't be needed..
interested in custom DIY flood tables to EBB n FLOW with pots filled with whatever medium.. maybe clay balls..
i know you can buy the molded flood tables but would sure enjoy the process and customizable ability of making them myself.. ive made ghetto ones with pond liner.. but i want to make this professional. I am not set on ebb and flow, just seems like a good option that could be used with regular soil or soiless medium.

the tables would have to stay pretty low, as the under 7ft ceilings.. leds can get about 10"from tops? and then 20 or 30 plants so no SOG..

any opinion on what would be the best setup would be is helpful! thank you!


not sure what the best veg lights are these days but veg room might be 5'x10' and flower room 12'x10' (total space 17'x10')



the rooms im thinking about converting to LEDs has 9 ft ceilings..
i've always said "go with soil, never lose a crop" but i am tempted now with LEDs to try Hydro
switching from HIDs in a closed grow environment (ac year round) to LEDs i would expect to see my electricity get cut in half..
 
K

Kdotwash

Member
Ok so first off, I applaud your willingness to completely convert over to Leds. Most never feel confident enough and often do mixed light setups canceling out alot potential production cost savings. Use leds for every light stage of plant growth... I have been doing so with tremendous results for 7 years.... I have not worked with Gavita leds directly, but their production history leads me to be hoepful they are using good boards to allow Maximum canopy penetration.... a traditional air filtration system is always easy to maintain... there are alot of options out there, additionally I have released my first prototype intake or adaptable to exhaust, air filtration systems.. more on that in above main thread. Ebb and flow is cool and all but operating costs are higher due to incidental costs that must be taken into account every harvest. Might I suggest an alternative? Utilizing the draining capabilities of a drain tray, but instead of ebb n flow- utilizing a top feed, drain to waste setup. This takes any cross plant contamination from localized watering systems in traditional hydroponics setups. And also allows you to solely use large rockwool cubes to cut down on pots height. Utilizing a drain to waste top feed system with an accompanying pull-pump drain set up would allow you to utilise maximum amount of vertical grow area while still addressing every single vertical growth issue in a facility . I'm going to dore up some ice water extract I just ran the other day and get my morning started, if you have any more questions please do not hesitate to ask. I am here for the community.
 
T

themaincola2020

Member
hey Kdotwash,
I would have never considered switching in the past to LEDs (I've been retired from gardening for the last few years.)
but now i am hearing good things and I really expect for them to pay for themselves just after the first year.

7years of Leds? wow.. so you started with ""Blurple" lights? still using that color? or a white or white/red/blue spectrum that these newer leds have?
do you mind sharing what kind of grams/watts you bring down? i assume you talk in true watts used when talking leds? excuse my ignorance. did you start with leds or also make the switch?

switching to gavita DE lamps from single ended traditional ballasts was a game changer for me so i have a lot of respect for their stuff. but with 6.5'ceilings and no high plant numbers things get complicated.

would like to hear more about your adaptable exhaust idea.. and what incidental costs are associated with ebb n flow?

my fear of hydro has always been losing a whole crop,
ive been reading a lot of good things about the top feed dtw setup you mention.. you just use rockwool? is that ... clone into rockwool-rockwool clone into bigger rockwool cube-cube laid on top of slabs or rockwool? i assume you can switch the plants into different trays for veg- to flower?

i do like the simple nature of the ebb n flow.. i have created many auto water systems for my soil plants and they always fail.. they always flow at different rates.. even with individual plant adjustments, things clog and i hate it.. maybe you hydro guys figured it out.. (ive been away for years)

pull-pump is a pump to empty all the drainage water that will be collecting?

I like how your setup sounds great for low ceilings.. I like the idea of reusable medium (clay pellets) but not a deal breaker to use rockwool.

thanks for the great information and hope you had fun with your ice extraction! i use to have a washing machine just for that))
 
K

Kdotwash

Member
Responded in quote, bolded text

themaincola2020 said:
hey Kdotwash,
I would have never considered switching in the past to LEDs (I've been retired from gardening for the last few years.)
but now i am hearing good things and I really expect for them to pay for themselves just after the first year.

7years of Leds? wow.. so you started with ""Blurple" lights? still using that color? or a white or white/red/blue spectrum that these newer leds have?
do you mind sharing what kind of grams/watts you bring down? i assume you talk in true watts used when talking leds? excuse my ignorance. did you start with leds or also make the switch?
Precisely, I can't even remember the first couple unite I tried, I wasn't really impressed though and didn't make a full room switch for a couple years, got a screaming deal on some Lush Dominator 2x's, I figure them to be around 500w per. I would do 2 per tray and would pull well over 2 lbs per tray. lollipoped fairly aggressive and major focus on canopy spread, sealed and filled with a shit ton of co2. In 7' tents for these rooms. They compliment the area I live in very nicely allowing me to reduce other costs. I started out mh/hps personally for 3ish years before actually trying a room with leds.
switching to gavita DE lamps from single ended traditional ballasts was a game changer for me so i have a lot of respect for their stuff. but with 6.5'ceilings and no high plant numbers things get complicated.
Commercial style growing is like being a kid in a candy store checking on rooms would just put me in shear amazement and awe often. Head stash is always the pure focus if I have full control so I've always pay extra extra attention to any possible signals or warnings, as well as laying out plenty of preventative measures.
would like to hear more about your adaptable exhaust idea.. and what incidental costs are associated with ebb n flow?
I posted a little thread in the grow room and design sub. Its just a personal take on the sheet metal filter boxes. For exhaust, swapping to carbon filters is simple. I guess with configuration you will always be using a hydroclay type material, that cost kills me... the prepping is ridiculous for the pellets aswell. I'm partial to top feed drain to waste.... started out with ebb n flow tables for their "intended" purpose. Played with building my own single bucket dwc system for a while, danced with top feed with the pellets and thats what did it for me. I dumped the tons of clay and just did big ole' grodan blocks and with regards to hydro that made me happy.
my fear of hydro has always been losing a whole crop,
ive been reading a lot of good things about the top feed dtw setup you mention.. you just use rockwool? is that ... clone into rockwool-rockwool clone into bigger rockwool cube-cube laid on top of slabs or rockwool? i assume you can switch the plants into different trays for veg- to flower? I've never quite understood why anyone would ever in their right mind link multiple plants together. They must really like playing Russian roulette... I started with large white square buckets and filled with hydroclay () around a 1.5" cube.... once I got away from that contract I setup my own and did 1.5" to 6" and had monsters and thats definitely got my vote for favorite and most seamless hydroponics setup.

i do like the simple nature of the ebb n flow.. i have created many auto water systems for my soil plants and they always fail.. they always flow at different rates.. even with individual plant adjustments, things clog and i hate it.. maybe you hydro guys figured it out.. (ive been away for years) Soil nutes(good ones) are going to raise hell on watering systems. I am an organic grower by heart and I have tried just bout' every dam lump, dripper, hose whatever you can imagine to not clog and I ended up just getting an inline sediment pump from a brewery and run just open 1/4" black tubing and my manifolds allow even pressure to be dispersed. With top feed synthetic, its an every night task to inspect drippers and ensure proper flow and correcting any variables, that should really be an SOP for any automated watering setup... but with that being said running them evil nutes and doing a good flush run on Sundays typically results in a proper dispersement of nutrients. It was fun back when I first started washing and scrubbing hydroclay and smoking ice wax with the homies.... you get to watch the tables flood and drain... its very serene.... but serenity is for smoking... I like good results and individual sites is always recommended in my regime.

pull-pump is a pump to empty all the drainage water that will be collecting? Exactly

I like how your setup sounds great for low ceilings.. I like the idea of reusable medium (clay pellets) but not a deal breaker to use rockwool. I don't plan to ever use hydroclay ina grow I have control of... reusable for how long.... and have you researched the agitation necessary prior to initial use and then oof, reusing them... I had a cement mixer and pressure washer and would have an associate scrubbing with a push broom or other means... non of that is fun. Rockwool is predictable, stupid cheap(bulk gets you down to $0.13/cube)

thanks for the great information and hope you had fun with your ice extraction! i use to have a washing machine just for that))
Hey thanks for listening! Always a good time ramblin bout methods. I just finished modifying this nice LG top loader to handle all my bubble needs, excited to see what the next harvests bring me.
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T

themaincola2020

Member
haha smoking ice wax with the homies... nice

yes commercial warehouse growing looks fun.. I am more hesitant about switching to leds on my 9'ceilings vs my 6.5' ceiling new grow for sure. watched some youtube warehouse grow videos yesterday..

nice sounds like you managed great results early on w/LEDs. I won't be messing with Co2 in this application. will look for your exhaust post after this.

this grow is out in the country and surrounded by other farmers so smell is not even a concern))

you do make the clay pellets sound pretty awful to deal with.
but sounds like the 1/4"top feed tubes are still a pain in the ass.. that brew pump suggestion is noted tho!

what if i just watered by hand? garden hose with wand connected to sub pump? only 24 flowering plants..
have to water about 2x/day with rockwool?

i'm still a little confused on your current go to set up..
you are now just finishing plants in a large rockwool cube sitting directly on the flood tray?

how high off the ground would the low/high ends of a 4x8 flood tray sit? i've seen cinder blocks used to support the flood trays, but looks like its better to make proper tables out of plywood.

I found a link of some home made DIY trays... I am wondering if it is worth doing? i have one section that is 7'11"so a 4x8 wont fit..
 

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K

Kdotwash

Member
Responded in quote, bolded text
themaincola2020 said:
haha smoking ice wax with the homies... nice
Ice wax is always better with homies!
yes commercial warehouse growing looks fun.. I am more hesitant about switching to leds on my 9'ceilings vs my 6.5' ceiling new grow for sure. watched some youtube warehouse grow videos yesterday..
I was too, and have never used leds outside of personal grows... but with all of this new tech and seeing plenty of warehouses utilizing leds with great results it definitely shows that we are entering a better age of tech.
nice sounds like you managed great results early on w/LEDs. I won't be messing with Co2 in this application. will look for your exhaust post after this.
co2 is fun. Especially with led. You want slightly higher Temps and humidity dumping lots of co2 in and leds love having a warmer environment to work in... they are quite the duo when monitored properly.
this grow is out in the country and surrounded by other farmers so smell is not even a concern))
not having to worry about smell is always a huge plus, but also having it so your relatives that aren't privy to the know come over without ever knowing anything is going on is always pleasant =]
you do make the clay pellets sound pretty awful to deal with.
but sounds like the 1/4"top feed tubes are still a pain in the ass.. that brew pump suggestion is noted tho!
I try to never give ultimatum in regards to others decisions. I'd rather have you come to your own conclusions based on accurate information, there is a time and place for everything.
what if i just watered by hand? garden hose with wand connected to sub pump? only 24 flowering plants..
have to water about 2x/day with rockwool?
WOOOO YES DO IT. I hand water drain to waste top feed rock wool in trays with mo'fuckin ROOTS ORGANIC nutes that was a couple of the most memorable grows I've ever done. I straight up hand watered, via pitcher out of 30 gallon drum all 32 plants in my 4x8 tray and it was always the most relaxing hour of my day. Give them enough saturation during water and they will retain. 1 water/day.
i'm still a little confused on your current go to set up..
you are now just finishing plants in a large rockwool cube sitting directly on the flood tray?
Apologies, my adhd gets the best of me when typing... thats a loaded question to answer though as my "go to" is dependent on so so many variables. But to keep on topic, for TFDTW I will use 1.5" cubes rooted, then dropped into a 6" cube. Yes, directly sitting on the tray.
how high off the ground would the low/high ends of a 4x8 flood tray sit? i've seen cinder blocks used to support the flood trays, but looks like its better to make proper tables out of plywood.
This is where my pull pump ideas comes to fruition... current tent is sitting... 2" off the tent floor the flod trays have natural cavities in them to facilitate proper direction of drainage to ports, I properly attach a drain fitting UNDERNEATH the tray, so the lowest point of the tray is the START of the drain =] pump sits out next to tray and runs approximately 2 minutes after watering is initiated. This has allowed me to gain so much head way. The top is easy peezy and why I soley use leds. You can get them rather high to the top of tent while still maintained cooling efficiency I have, in this tent approximately 5' of available safe grow space to run these baddies until they become to close to the light, and its compounded as I utilize trellis netting in a Multi stage system to maintain even and low canopy height.
I found a link of some home made DIY trays... I am wondering if it is worth doing? i have one section that is 7'11"so a 4x8 wont fit..
I've looked, tray liners, wood frame, even scrape acrylic sheets. But I always bounce back to good old flood and drain trays... the zon has got me down to low 50s for 4x4 trays if I hunt and similar pricing from sd hydro. K dot....
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T

themaincola2020

Member
Kdotwash said:
Responded in quote, bolded text
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great info thank you!


yes i've always loved hand watering and since this garden might be temporary and sort of an "LED test".. watering by hand for now should be great.
yea if youre using thick RootsOrganic nutes that would deff mess up any auto water system! when i did have auto water systems i usually watched the whole process anyway..


my plan on plant rotation is:
clone the day before flowering or maybe 3 days in, taking clones off the plants being flipped (an undercut and clone taking process.)

rockwool clones in a dome..
then into a bigger cube... under more leds? what is the best veg light these days? I have T5s w/no bulbs, extra HIDs..
are the roots not just going to wrap around their neighbors?

in the meantime the girls in flower are spending their 8 weeks there and then get cut.
and the vegging plants in their large cube get moved into the flowering trays (the roots must be crazy by now?)

am i on the right track? concerned about moving the plants that might be 2 ft tall from veg to flowering rooms.

i assume you cover the top of your trays with panda film to keep the light off the roots?


wow so the lowest end of your tray is only 2 inches off the ground? sometype of tray under there with a little sub pump? pump in out my window along with the waste line for my RO filter (never used RO water before) property has well water with lots of Sulphur but just got tested very clean for TDS etc.

that would give plenty of space, even with sub 7 foot ceilings. I think i want my 24 plants (8per 4x8 tray) to finish about 3.5-4ft from top of rockwool to maincola. (with a bit of training through two layers of trellis netting..

again thanks for all the wisdom! don't feel obligated to comment on all my ramblings, but this is very useful to me and what you said about not telling people what to do but to make their own choices.. totally agree, i just really want to get this right the first time because i hate buying all this plastic trash and then throwing it away after one run to try something new...
 
K

Kdotwash

Member
You already know \/
themaincola2020 said:
great info thank you!


yes i've always loved hand watering and since this garden might be temporary and sort of an "LED test".. watering by hand for now should be great.
yea if youre using thick RootsOrganic nutes that would deff mess up any auto water system! when i did have auto water systems i usually watched the whole process anyway..


my plan on plant rotation is:
clone the day before flowering or maybe 3 days in, taking clones off the plants being flipped (an undercut and clone taking process.)
I have done both, this newest tent had clones taken actually three days into flower, funny... they are doing just dandy 9 days in.
rockwool clones in a dome..
then into a bigger cube... under more leds? what is the best veg light these days? I have T5s w/no bulbs, extra HIDs..
are the roots not just going to wrap around their neighbors?
Precisely. Pop em in some prepped cubes and and keep that dome sealed tight. From there you are able to inser them into the cutouts on a 6" cube or if you're feeling frisky, 8" cube =]. Leds are winning for me currently... have a little viperspectra cheapie Amazon led over a bunch of kosher kush, gelato and some others. Have used the lil cheapie with success tons of times. Most commercial setups will actually finish off in the 6" rockwool. I like 8" but have never "needed" it. I wanted to stack, 8" on bottom with the 6" main on top and ive found a couple people who have done so but, results are mixed and that causes alot of variable to be adjusted anyways so I've never been pressed to try...
in the meantime the girls in flower are spending their 8 weeks there and then get cut.
and the vegging plants in their large cube get moved into the flowering trays (the roots must be crazy by now?) Yes, and thats the hope =]

am i on the right track? concerned about moving the plants that might be 2 ft tall from veg to flowering rooms.
Sure are. Is the distance long? Is a rolling tray feasible?
i assume you cover the top of your trays with panda film to keep the light off the roots?
Yes. I wish the damn cubes came capped with a center hole, atleast make an option, I would happily pay more

wow so the lowest end of your tray is only 2 inches off the ground? sometype of tray under there with a little sub pump? pump in out my window along with the waste line for my RO filter (never used RO water before) property has well water with lots of Sulphur but just got tested very clean for TDS etc.
Think plumbing, 4x4 tray, hole cut at drain location. Take the bottom piece of the drain and pl8x loctite In line with hole -> 90° elbow -> straight piece -> pump -> drain
that would give plenty of space, even with sub 7 foot ceilings. I think i want my 24 plants (8per 4x8 tray) to finish about 3.5-4ft from top of rockwool to maincola. (with a bit of training through two layers of trellis netting..
That will be easily attainable with a followed schedule
again thanks for all the wisdom! don't feel obligated to comment on all my ramblings, but this is very useful to me and what you said about not telling people what to do but to make their own choices.. totally agree, i just really want to get this right the first time because i hate buying all this plastic trash and then throwing it away after one run to try something new...
I have been dormant for some time, truly since the fall of prop 215... I appreciate anyone willing to listen, we are all here to learn and grow. If I can help save even one grower from making that one last mistake to make them walk away from the plant then I truly feel as though I have reached true bliss in this community... I read and read and when I thought I had it down I researched more and questioned every person that knew anything to do with the plant. I view life as kind of like a puzzle, we all are given pieces to this infinite background and we choose solely what pieces are lain down to design an image that, until we die, we will never truly see... well thats all for tonight, this Dj Short's Blueberry melt has got me quite blissful this evening. K dot...
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T

themaincola2020

Member
Kdotwash said:
You already know \/
Click to expand...
ah yes i forgot you should use RO water for hash. Nice, I found the stealth150 sitting around so I will grab some new filters and use that. no negatives to using RO water I assume? not an excess removal of micro nutes?

yea I remember my veg plants being a little pot stuck by the time my flower rooms were clear. so taking them a couple days into flower should help..

I will have to move the plants about 5-15ft from veg room to flowering trays. rolling trays are not possible. I have been seeing those rolling racks that go with the activeaqua infinity trays. But I don't see the point of them in my setup.. those infinity trays can be adjusted to a custom length so that should be great for my application. I assume some basic plywood tables to support the tray is best?


your pull pump explanation,, i think i am following i am just confused on what kind of pump is being used? some type on inline pump?
or a basic sub pump sitting in a small res? emptying the res as it fills...


would each table have its own pump?
if i pump it 3feet up i can go out the window with it.

so cubes are sitting in your tray.. panda film over the top. roots are spreading out over the tray? don't those roots dry out much faster than the rockwool?

coco? what about using coco in pots and topfeed dtw?. i forget if we addressed that.. but you prefer rockwool?

nice outlook on life, thanks K dot!
 
T

themaincola2020

Member
TintEastwood said:
DTW Coco could fit your grow.
It has its pros and cons like any grow media.

www.cocoforcannabis.com

Growing Cannabis in Coco Coir with High Frequency Fertigation - Coco For Cannabis

Learn how to unlock the magic of growing cannabis in coco coir with high frequency fertigation! Guide to feed and water cannabis in coco like a pro!
www.cocoforcannabis.com www.cocoforcannabis.com
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that's a great article, thanks TintEastwood!
I like how you can't over water coco.. I guess I would lose about 4-6 inches in grow space going with coco in five gallon pots vs rockwool cubes, not a deal beaker.
i guess your going to want to water coco more often than rockwool, watering coco by hand seems easier..
if i go coco i assume i will try yet another drip system..

i guess the room build would be the same if i ran coco or rockwool... flood trays close to the ground,, top feeding drain to waste over my chosen medium.
and i prob already have the 5 or 7 gallon pots, if i can use normal soil pots with coco. and maybe perlite mixed in... i think i read you can reuse coco?
but i assume most people toss it...
 
K

Kdotwash

Member
themaincola2020 said:
ah yes i forgot you should use RO water for hash. Nice, I found the stealth150 sitting around so I will grab some new filters and use that. no negatives to using RO water I assume? not an excess removal of micro nutes?
Cal mag is really all you'll need to balance. Have used for most of my grows.
yea I remember my veg plants being a little pot stuck by the time my flower rooms were clear. so taking them a couple days into flower should help..
Its all finding the rooms flow and maintaining it
I will have to move the plants about 5-15ft from veg room to flowering trays. rolling trays are not possible. I have been seeing those rolling racks that go with the activeaqua infinity trays. But I don't see the point of them in my setup.. those infinity trays can be adjusted to a custom length so that should be great for my application. I assume some basic plywood tables to support the tray is best?
Thats going to one very calm walk to flower room it happens though. Try putting the cube inside of a bucket to aide in smooth transfer.
your pull pump explanation,, i think i am following i am just confused on what kind of pump is being used? some type on inline pump?
or a basic sub pump sitting in a small res? emptying the res as it fills...
Inline pump, sitting on the floor where ever.20201106_233657.jpg
a pump similar to that is what I use, that's a Chugged pumps brand inline unit. It does SOP's for breweries consisting on very hot, sediment filled yummy-ness... its not disappointing me. Mine was a gift. Obviously for drain you can just use any ole' inline pump, just put it in an area where maintenance won't be bothersome.
would each table have its own pump?
if i pump it 3feet up i can go out the window with it.
You can certainly make a rail line and have a manifold join any trays together for the final dump.
so cubes are sitting in your tray.. panda film over the top. roots are spreading out over the tray? don't those roots dry out much faster than the rockwool?
When you put the beef cubes in and adhere to a strict schedule you will end with a root mass that will have begun to replace the volume of the cube.
coco? what about using coco in pots and topfeed dtw?. i forget if we addressed that.. but you prefer rockwool?
Some love it and get phenomenal results, I do not care for it.
nice outlook on life, thanks K dot!
anytime... just a Jay away...
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TintEastwood

TintEastwood

Well-Known Member
Coco. 3gallon is my max pot size. Usually 1 or 2 gal. Hand watering gets old real quick. Having the automation is place is key. I still do a combination of manual and automated.

Open lines. No drip. 3x3 tray.
20201014_194338.jpg

Gravity or bilge drain of waste water is another lifesaver. Dehuey drain included, no bucket emptying required.

Unbuffered coco can absorb some of the Ca from our nute solution. (And releases some K) Good idea to make sure you have little extra cal/mag in you nute solution from early veg. Taper off during flower.

My playground.

Seven Sisters

Veg.
www.rollitup.org
 
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T

themaincola2020

Member
TintEastwood said:
Coco. 3gallon is my max pot size. Usually 1 or 2 gal. Hand watering gets old real quick. Having the automation is place is key. I still do a combination of manual and automated.

Open lines. No drip. 3x3 tray.
View attachment 4736169

Gravity or bilge drain of waste water is another lifesaver. Dehuey drain included, no bucket emptying required.

Unbuffered coco can absorb some of the Ca from our nute solution. (And releases some K) Good idea to make sure you have little extra cal/mag in you nute solution from early veg. Taper off during flower.

My playground.

Seven Sisters

Veg.
www.rollitup.org
Click to expand...
looks like a nice set up!
sounds like you need a lot less coco than soil.. I would use bigger pots as i need to stretch 24-30 plants over 170 sq feet.

does your auto water system clog? if not what do you credit towards that? using synthetic nutes?
 
T

themaincola2020

Member
sounds like Cal Mag is clutch!

inline pump sweet.. i didn't even know they existed.. but looks perfect.

is there a specific reason you don't care for coco? seems like coco would be easier to hand water?
i bet I make drip system either way.... but watering rockwool covered in panda film seems a little tricky. maybe?
 
TintEastwood

TintEastwood

Well-Known Member
themaincola2020 said:
looks like a nice set up!
sounds like you need a lot less coco than soil.. I would use bigger pots as i need to stretch 24-30 plants over 170 sq feet.

does your auto water system clog? if not what do you credit towards that? using synthetic nutes?
Click to expand...
No clogging problems with open lines.
Using the aquarium manifolds does require some fiddling and adjusting, they work for me. Big pump keeps it more consistent.

My experience is limited, only a 4x8x8.
 
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