Vegan Organics Aka Veganics With Matt Rize

blueJ said:

I'd like to try a banana peel tea for bloom! Do you have any high P amendments in your soil Matt?

Ya know, i was thinking last night. Veg tent everything is lush, green, grows quick (considering average temp right now is 68F in there), eats up everything i give it like a real champ! Same soil mix is used regardless of my transplant time.

So i look at what is different in the bloom tent, first to mind is the change in nutrient solution/teas, okay then i think over feeding or underfeeding, maybe, then i think PH, maybe. I've upped the PH, i've used more nutes, i've used less nutes, etc etc. no matter what i do results seem to be the same = early yellowing, crispy curlying leaves (a la phos def.) and occasional "spotting" (think K def. or cal def.), and smaller leaves and curly slow growing tips (new growth). So that just leaves me confused, no matter what i've changed and monitored each change at seperate times, i'm getting the same result.

So, took a step back and thought, shit what else could it be? It HAS to be something different in the bloom tent...then a light bulb went on, literally! Maybe my HPS lights are shitty? They sure do love it under the halides, then no matter what i do in bloom they, basically, die off to soon.

Veg = eye hortilux 400w MH (X2)
flower = GE lucalox 600w HPS (X2)

I"m thinking my girls don't like this bulb!! Sorry i know, not technically a veganic issue, but hey it's a veganic grow and it's an issue!

I'm going to buy a good full spectrum MH and see how they react after a few days, leaving one HPS in there. What bulb ya think? Also, am i crazy for thinking it's the lights? I thought i upgraded my bulbs, but maybe these lucalux are shitty bulbs?

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I've had similar happen before with the veganics, but I believe Magnesium, Fulvic Acid and Hygrozyme has solved my issues...what are you using for mg? Makes sense, because they help with nutrient/chlorophyll uptake.

silverpanic99 said:

is that the same for N?

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No. They love Nitrogen and will make it available to the plants.

For early yellowing issues:


I'm not 100% veganic, but this is what I do when a strain that I don't have dialed in yet yellows early. I will either top-off my pots with some more Subcool Supersoil which I use now in the bottom of my pots. Or I will make a bloom based organic tea and add a bit of alfalfa meal for the nitrogen to help me get through untill the end.

On my next grow I would either add a bit more supersoil, or I would keep adding a bit of Nitrogen a little longer during the transition phase from veg to bloom to help make it further.

and get or read the book taht everyone talks about on this journal "Teaming with Microbes" excellent must have!!!

blacktourmaline said:

I've had similar happen before with the veganics, but I believe Magnesium, Fulvic Acid and Hygrozyme has solved my issues...what are you using for mg? Makes sense, because they help with nutrient/chlorophyll uptake.

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Im also having yellowong issues and Im on day 1 of bloom with heavy duty fruity in bioterra plus, i had the same issue with a peat perlite blend with this strain. I have a pinnapple express in farfand soil that is said to feed for 6 months, and not 1 yellow leaf on this plant there all still green and show no signs of defficiancys im also running biocanna and nn in that pot i dont know if its the strain or medium? but i also fed a tea late in flower with kelp meal and she loved it

Matt Rize said:

I'm not using any Phosphorus supplement. Just feeding hard with the Flores. Using lots of CalMag, micronutes, silica, and fulvic.

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how much fulvic in bloom and do you use thrive alive?

NightbirdX said:

I'd add a micronutirent supplement in there as well. I use EJ's,microblast once every 2 weeks

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every 2 weeks including in flowering? when do you cut it out?

I have to order teaming with microbes it is a necessity at this point. Might try the library first though.

dickkhead said:

Im also having yellowong issues and Im on day 1 of bloom with heavy duty fruity in bioterra plus, i had the same issue with a peat perlite blend with this strain. I have a pinnapple express in farfand soil that is said to feed for 6 months, and not 1 yellow leaf on this plant there all still green and show no signs of defficiancys im also running biocanna and nn in that pot i dont know if its the strain or medium? but i also fed a tea late in flower with kelp meal and she loved it

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Read a few posts like this and wanted to make a comment: are you sure it's N your missing?

Nitrogen and Iron deficiency have very similar symptoms! The main cause of an N dif is high pH. (keep it no higher than 6.8 imho)

If your yellowing is in younger leaves than it is Iron, older leaves it's N, but check pH before adding more.

silverpanic99 said:

I have to order teaming with microbes it is a necessity at this point. Might try the library first though.

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It's a great place to start and learn. I found a few chapters kind of dry but full of great info. Get the revised edition. Elaine Ingrham has a new book out, well came out last year on tea's, this is quite a ground breaking book from what I have read.

http://www.amazon.com/Compost-Tea-Brewing-Manual/dp/B0006S6JVK

Nice day to be outside Matt, stop making hash, smoke a big one and go outside take some pixs. Peace

woodsmaneh! said:

It's a great place to start and learn. I found a few chapters kind of dry but full of great info. Get the revised edition. Elaine Ingrham has a new book out, well came out last year on tea's, this is quite a ground breaking book from what I have read.

http://www.amazon.com/Compost-Tea-Brewing-Manual/dp/B0006S6JVK

Nice day to be outside Matt, stop making hash, smoke a big one and go outside take some pixs. Peace

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I'm teaching at the cannabis farmers market today. 11 to 1, topic is getting ready for the spring. I'll be making some fresh cannabis juice, using my The Flav flowers, and showing the students how to cut clones.

Matt Rize said:

I'm teaching at the cannabis farmers market today. 11 to 1, topic is getting ready for the spring. I'll be making some fresh cannabis juice, using my The Flav flowers, and showing the students how to cut clones.

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if you don't mind me asking, is the cannabis farmers market anywhere close to San Jose? i was also wondering, who is able to attend?

arik maso said:

if you don't mind me asking, is the cannabis farmers market anywhere close to San Jose? i was also wondering, who is able to attend?

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the market is inside organicann, a large dispensary in santa rosa. only 215 patients can come, and classes are always free. every student goes home with samples.

great thanks!

Matt Rize said:

I'm not using any Phosphorus supplement. Just feeding hard with the Flores. Using lots of CalMag, micronutes, silica, and fulvic.

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So your down with the sillica?

I usually like to keep my plants as natural as I can just so I know I'm medicating with naturally grown...

I know silica is naturally occurring in the plant but you don't feel like adding sillica from the bottle is un natural? This is the same reason I don't use 'sugar' products that are supposed to increase resin for this reason.. Only molasses which I seldom use.

What product do you use? Great to hear silica in a veganic discussion, i usually always heard about it reading hydro grows..

If you guys are into mining your own silica, look up Rainbow Rock on the Southern Oregon Coast, it is made of SILICA. I read this in a roadside geology book that gives information of the general geology make-up of the surrounding earth and soils.

Book name:
ROADSIDE GEOLOGY OF OREGON

Authors:
David D. Alt
Donald W. Hyndman

Book Quote
page 36.

"Rainbow Rock, just south of Boardman State Park, is composed mostly of intricately folded thin beds of colorful chert, a very hard sedimentary rock composed almost entirely of silica. There are quite a few such bedded cherts in this part of the Coast Range but Rainbow Rock is one of the few places where it is easy to get a good look at them."


Location:
Est. 20 min. North of the Cali Border.


Shhh, don't tell the Nutrient companies about my source of silica!!!!

PakaloloHui said:

If you guys are into mining your own silica, look up Rainbow Rock on the Southern Oregon Coast, it is made of SILICA. I read this in a roadside geology book that gives information of the general geology make-up of the surrounding earth and soils.

Book name:
ROADSIDE GEOLOGY OF OREGON

Authors:
David D. Alt
Donald W. Hyndman

Book Quote
page 36.

"Rainbow Rock, just south of Boardman State Park, is composed mostly of intricately folded thin beds of colorful chert, a very hard sedimentary rock composed almost entirely of silica. There are quite a few such bedded cherts in this part of the Coast Range but Rainbow Rock is one of the few places where it is easy to get a good look at them."


Location:
Est. 20 min. North of the Cali Border.


Shhh, don't tell the Nutrient companies about my source of silica!!!!

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I love geology! Went to school for environmental geology. the downside with mining your own silica is that it would take a while to break down to become available to the plants. Outdoor garden this method would work. Indoor would possibly work if you "activate your soil." I think greensand has silica in it too. But it too will take a while to break down.

I often question the silica from a bottle and organic/veganics. If it is chemically derived then I have some issues. I need to do some research on that.

I do lots of composting and take my time doing so. I get kelp from the beach, oyster shells by the bucket fulls (with already crushed shells as well) from near by oyster farms, the silica and many other ingredients from the forest, food scraps and many other plant materials and add it to multiple small piles of compost. I'm in no hurry to use this, but just keep ammending it with anything and everything possible. I'll give my piles several years before using.
I hope it all works out, I really don't see why not, read some good books and keep getting great info on the web from sites like RIU, and from people like Matt and their helpful posts and info.
My soils are very Bio-active.

Quote:

PakaloloHui said:

Don't fortget that High P levels are toxic to your microherd in the soil!!!

Build the herd and they will provide the P for the plants through normal feedings.

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Thanks for reminding me Pakalolo! I picked up Teaming with Microbes and caught my attention when reading about this the other day:

"Phosphourus-solubilizing bacteria and fungi...produce organic acids capable of converting insoluble phosphorus into a form that can be taken up by plants. There seems to be a relationship between endomycorrhizal fungi and phosphorus-solubilizing bacteria. The phosphorus freed up by soil bacteria must be quickly absorbed lest it convert back to an insoluble form. If endomycorrhizal fungi are nearby, some of this free phosphorus is absorbed and delivered to host plants. The bacteria may travel with the hyphae in search of phosphates. It is even possible that the endomycorrhizal fungi stimulate the plant to make more exudates to attract more solubilizing bacteria."

It continues to describe a case study where a crop was inoculated with this specific "phosphorus-solubilizing" bacteria which increased yields while using less fertilizer, and also stating that "products on the fringes of the home horticultural market make use of them..." Which to me means the indoor cannabis growing market

So, if we're inoculating with one or more product that contains these phosphorus-solubilizing bacteria (it doesn't give their species name, and with some of the products we use have dozens of different species names, i'm playing the assumption most of us are getting these one way or another, even if it's naturally occuring in homemade compost teas), thus making more phosphorus available to the plant and when one continues to "boost" levels of P out of a bottled nute, we're essentially dosing with toxic levels of P causing nute lockout, and/or killing off the microherd, as mentioned, leading to further problems on top of P lockout.

I'm reading this book slow, trying to absorb and retain a lot of valuble info, not to mention it's a real game changer for many that are discovering the soil food web for the first time!

"Feed the soil not the plant!"

blacktourmaline said:

I've had similar happen before with the veganics, but I believe Magnesium, Fulvic Acid and Hygrozyme has solved my issues...what are you using for mg? Makes sense, because they help with nutrient/chlorophyll uptake.

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I use hygrozyme, fulvic acid via BIOAG's fullpower (lovin' it!) and magnesium i think mainly from GO's calmag (use all RO water) oh and epsom salt in the soil mix.

Makes sense to me too, i haven't beening using the fullpower for too long, and my soil mixes are changing and, i feel, improving with each new batch, so i'll take note and comment as my early yellowing issues improve (or not!), try to possibly pinpoint something specific to document and help other's with same issue.

woodsmaneh! said:

Read a few posts like this and wanted to make a comment: are you sure it's N your missing?

Nitrogen and Iron deficiency have very similar symptoms! The main cause of an N dif is high pH. (keep it no higher than 6.8 imho)

If your yellowing is in younger leaves than it is Iron, older leaves it's N, but check pH before adding more.

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For me, I have low PH mixes in bloom and yellowing is bottom to top, last crop i top-dressed with alfalfa meal and went back to biovega (like 50/50 with flores) for a couple feedings. I noticed the perimeter of the leaf greened up for a little, the center remained yellow, it was probably to far into flower so the plant didn't really give a shit anymore about the leaves, but i felt it did help "pause" the situation allowing the plant to pull a bit more from the leaves...


Silica!! I started using that too in very small amounts, i think by dynagro, it says "beyond organic" on the bottle, whatever that's supposed to mean lol.

Matt you're always coming up with these links to bitchin' lookin products, i have to thank you for the BIOAG products, props brotha! And now I want to check out these vitality herbs and clay products!

Also, I wanted to point out.I used to run a pretty simple, industry standard, type of regimine.FFOF soil or even home depot supersoil (whatever soil) ammended with bone/blood meal and dolomite lime, cut with perlite.Fed the ladies with PureBlend Pro GROW and in bloom switched to PureBlend Pro BLOOM, an early boost of FF big bloom, then finished off with EJ Bloom. Also fed 1TBS molasses/gal pretty much beginning to end, every watering (used tap water, let it sit out)With the above I always had perfect to near perfect results for years and years.

I grabbed one of my leftover bottles and looked at the ingredients, they put it all in there man! Silica, calmag, micronutes etc etc etc. So without knowing it I was giving the plants a full spectrum of what it needed.

Seems like with my new plant-based grows I am hand selecting everything the plant needs from many different sources which leaves it open for one to be either severely underfeeding a certain element or overfeeding. Also, i noticed on the bottle of CannaBIO it has a line that says it is designed to be used with "compost and mineral based soils," obviously telling us that it is lacking in certain things (micronutes at least) that we should be getting out of our soil mix, or other source. And a big "duh" moment here... which is why when used in combo with bioterra plus people are getting amazing results, they go hand in hand and CANNA knows this! Bring back bioterra plus!

blueJ said:

Silica!! I started using that too in very small amounts, i think by dynagro, it says "beyond organic" on the bottle, whatever that's supposed to mean lol.

Matt you're always coming up with these links to bitchin' lookin products, i have to thank you for the BIOAG products, props brotha! And now I want to check out these vitality herbs and clay products!

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Obviously the General Organic's cost the same for 4lbs as it does for 50lbs from the real gardening supply company.

Sr V - Im not sure where liquid silica falls in the organic game, but I love using it. I add small amounts of supplementary Si throughout the grow, and I use it to emulsify neem oil.