What deficiencies does this look like?

PadawanWarrior

PadawanWarrior

Well-Known Member
Renfro said:
I am just saying that if calcium wasn't the problem, K def turns out to be the cause, and you pull calcium then you may get a cal def along with the K def. Does your gut say that you have plenty of K? I did see in that post that came in while I was typing that you added a little K so thats probably good. I really suspect the K def is the issue, if it's locked out by calcium or just not present it looks like a K def to me. When they go into flower the need for K goes up. Anyways, it's just hard for a third party to quantify how much calcium has been added and if it is still being released or not, it is also difficult to quantify how much K is present. So go with your gut, like you did reducing ca and increasing K a little probably covers both bases, just watch for any sign of a cal def. It sucks to have to diagnose feed issues in flower because you aren't getting new nodes and leaves to show if you are going in the right direction, all you have is the existing growth to read. So your gut is the way to go. I assume you have thought about pH?
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Well my gut is telling me I've put in too much Ca, but my soil microbes are still keeping my pH in check. But WTF does my gut know. I wanna know what your guts tell ya, lol.

Seriously though thanks for all your help. I'm not hurting for weed, so it's all good if it takes awhile to figure it out.
 
budofgreen

budofgreen

Well-Known Member
I use well water at ~500ppm and I always get the Ca. excess after mid flower. I do add extra magnesium sulfate and flush with rain water when it comes. I use perlite so no buffer, so yeah. I don't do organics but it does look like a lockout similar to mine that I get often.
 
kratos015

kratos015

Well-Known Member
PadawanWarrior said:
I had to go smoke a bowl before reading that's book, lol. OK, so I've read it twice and tested my pH again with my BlueLab Soil Probe. I tested multiple spots and got 6.3-6.6. I should've mentioned the pH in my first post. My well water just tested 7.8.

I've used all kinds of Ca based stuff. I've been giving them the Craft Blend from BAS and some of the ingredients I've used alone too. I've also use chicken manure.

Thorvin Premium Kelp Meal
Karanja Cake - Terviva
Alfalfa Meal
CalPhos
Camelina Meal
Crustacean Meal
Fish Meal
3x Fish Bone Meal
Soybean Meal
Sul-Po-Mag (Also Known as K-Mag or Langbeinite)
Organic Malted Barley
Premium Calcium Montmorillonite
Micronized Basalt - Blue Ridge Meta
Gypsum
Oyster Flour

We got the water tested when we moved in and the ppm was around 165 or so. It was lower than 200 for sure. I'm guessing the majority of it is Ca because my water wants to buffer the pH back up when I add acid. Weak acids won't keep it lower for long. I have a hot tub, and I would have to add muriatic acid to the water occasionally because it would slowly rise back up. We also have slight Ca deposits on sink faucets and hot tub jets. It doesn't sound like my Ca in my water is quite as bad as yours though.

Since my soil pH seems fine, I was thinking it was too much Ca causing K and Mg to be getting locked out. But I'm totally guessing. I'm totally new to Mulder's chart and symbiotic vs antagonistic nutrients.

If it is excess Ca, I was going to slowly try to get some out by adding citric acid to the water until I get a little runoff each time. Or adding a little organic nutrients that has acid in it to slowly flush some out. Like I said I'm still a beginner.

Thanks for that load of information man. You're awesome.
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Do what I can my man. Does seem like it very well could be an overload of Calcium, lots of soil ingredients with it and the OSF top dress too.

Though I'm a bit confused as to what is bringing your pH down to a 6.3-6.6 if you have OSF as a buffer, a top dress, and your water is 7.8 pH.

Did you test the pH of your soil before or after watering? Probe accurate/calibrated?
 
PadawanWarrior

PadawanWarrior

Well-Known Member
kratos015 said:
Do what I can my man. Does seem like it very well could be an overload of Calcium, lots of soil ingredients with it and the OSF top dress too.

Though I'm a bit confused as to what is bringing your pH down to a 6.3-6.6 if you have OSF as a buffer, a top dress, and your water is 7.8 pH.

Did you test the pH of your soil before or after watering? Probe accurate/calibrated?
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I always am greatful for your input. You're the one that got me thinking about the Ca.

I didn't topdress with much OSF at all ever. I don't know if I've actually ever used it plain to be honest. I just know the BAS Craft Blend has lots of Ca based stuff and I was using some extra fish bone meal thinking P deficiency. Plus I was adding a little extra crusteacean meal sometimes.

I'm just guessing my soil microbes are keeping my pH in check. I try not to let it dry out. I'm not sure though. That's what's kinda confusing too.

My BlueLab probe should be pretty accurate. It has been giving me similar results each time I test stuff.

Today I just tested it at halfway between waterings. But I've tested it right after watering, and it's pretty close to the same. Maybe I should check it more often, but I didn't think pH was the problem.

Thanks again man. I'm awaiting your next Book Publication, lol.
 
kratos015

kratos015

Well-Known Member
PadawanWarrior said:
I always am greatful for your input. You're the one that got me thinking about the Ca.

I didn't topdress with much OSF at all ever. I don't know if I've actually ever used it plain to be honest. I just know the BAS Craft Blend has lots of Ca based stuff and I was using some extra fish bone meal thinking P deficiency. Plus I was adding a little extra crusteacean meal sometimes.

I'm just guessing my soil microbes are keeping my pH in check. I try not to let it dry out. I'm not sure though. That's what's kinda confusing too.

My BlueLab probe should be pretty accurate. It has been giving me similar results each time I test stuff.

Today I just tested it at halfway between waterings. But I've tested it right after watering, and it's pretty close to the same. Maybe I should check it more often, but I didn't think pH was the problem.

Thanks again man. I'm awaiting your next Book Publication, lol.
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Thought I read in one of your posts you top dressed OSF recently, so my mistake there!

If your pH probe is accurate, your water likely isn't strong enough to be an actual buffer. So your pH is fine and it is in fact the excess Calcium. Just wanted to be certain of the pH first before anything else. Definitely the Ca causing lockout, langbeinite has plenty of Mg and K.

Removing the Gypsum should be sufficient. Otherwise, you'll have to choose between removing the Crustacean Meal or Montmorillonite. Though, I believe removing the Gypsum and replacing it with more Basalt should be sufficient.

Your water likely doesn't have that much Calcium in it, but just enough to throw things out of balance in the soil itself overtime as salts from the water build up.

Looked like you were still in veg too? Not sure if you're able to pot up at all, but potting up with more soil that doesn't have Ca inputs might help speed recovery along. Just a thought, not always practical though.
 
B

BeastLebanese

Well-Known Member
PadawanWarrior said:
Well my gut is telling me I've put in too much Ca, but my soil microbes are still keeping my pH in check. But WTF does my gut know. I wanna know what your guts tell ya, lol.

Seriously though thanks for all your help. I'm not hurting for weed, so it's all good if it takes awhile to figure it out.
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Nothing I can really add to this thread diagnostics wise, everyone had some really great input!!

Just wanted to say about the gut feeling. Here's a video that talks about what's been called our 'second brain'.

It's pretty deep and really makes a lot of sense. I posted the link for the vid cause if I tried to explain it, I probably would've sounded like this guy with the funny ass afro from this video
Lol
 
PadawanWarrior

PadawanWarrior

Well-Known Member
kratos015 said:
Thought I read in one of your posts you top dressed OSF recently, so my mistake there!

If your pH probe is accurate, your water likely isn't strong enough to be an actual buffer. So your pH is fine and it is in fact the excess Calcium. Just wanted to be certain of the pH first before anything else. Definitely the Ca causing lockout, langbeinite has plenty of Mg and K.

Removing the Gypsum should be sufficient. Otherwise, you'll have to choose between removing the Crustacean Meal or Montmorillonite. Though, I believe removing the Gypsum and replacing it with more Basalt should be sufficient.

Your water likely doesn't have that much Calcium in it, but just enough to throw things out of balance in the soil itself overtime as salts from the water build up.

Looked like you were still in veg too? Not sure if you're able to pot up at all, but potting up with more soil that doesn't have Ca inputs might help speed recovery along. Just a thought, not always practical though.
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I did say that, so you're not mistaken. If I did give it any OSF, it was a small amount I would guess because I don't actually remember giving it to them. I do have some, but it's barely used, if at all. Also I wouldn't of given it to all my pots if I did, so I don't think I really added any extra besides what the Craft Blend already has. I was using that liberally though for awhile.

I think my pH is OK. I just started to add langbeinite to my mixes to see if it helps, but I'm starting with a really small amount. The Craft Blend had some, but I've been trying to use less since it has the other Ca that I don't think I want now. How much langbeinite do you think is safe to top dress my 15 gal pots?

I've got the basalt you recommended, but I haven't started using it yet. That's next on my list of amendments to start adding. I should probably cut out the Craft Blend all together for awhile and see how if it helps, because that's the only source of gypsum it gets, not to mention all the other Ca based stuff. It just worked really well at first, but I think it might be making my Ca levels too high. Again, I'm still a rookie and am just trying to learn this shit, lol.

I think you're totally on it that the Ca built up over time. It's not a crazy amount of Ca in my water and top dressing, but it builds up over time, and when I'm not watering until runoff, the excess has no where to go. Again, this is just a thought. That's why I'm asking you pro's.

That plant I first showed is still vegging, and I have plenty of room to add more top dressing or compost under my mulch when I need to, but they're already in 15 gal pots. I couldn't imagine tansplanting them, lol. It totally would love it though if I could manage it.

Thanks again Kratos. Now you can read my book, lol.
 
kratos015

kratos015

Well-Known Member
PadawanWarrior said:
I did say that, so you're not mistaken. If I did give it any OSF, it was a small amount I would guess because I don't actually remember giving it to them. I do have some, but it's barely used, if at all. Also I wouldn't of given it to all my pots if I did, so I don't think I really added any extra besides what the Craft Blend already has. I was using that liberally though for awhile.

I think my pH is OK. I just started to add langbeinite to my mixes to see if it helps, but I'm starting with a really small amount. The Craft Blend had some, but I've been trying to use less since it has the other Ca that I don't think I want now. How much langbeinite do you think is safe to top dress my 15 gal pots?

I've got the basalt you recommended, but I haven't started using it yet. That's next on my list of amendments to start adding. I should probably cut out the Craft Blend all together for awhile and see how if it helps, because that's the only source of gypsum it gets, not to mention all the other Ca based stuff. It just worked really well at first, but I think it might be making my Ca levels too high. Again, I'm still a rookie and am just trying to learn this shit, lol.

I think you're totally on it that the Ca built up over time. It's not a crazy amount of Ca in my water and top dressing, but it builds up over time, and when I'm not watering until runoff, the excess has no where to go. Again, this is just a thought. That's why I'm asking you pro's.

That plant I first showed is still vegging, and I have plenty of room to add more top dressing or compost under my mulch when I need to, but they're already in 15 gal pots. I couldn't imagine tansplanting them, lol. It totally would love it though if I could manage it.

Thanks again Kratos. Now you can read my book, lol.
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That's exactly it, because unfortunately these salts will build up over a matter of time. You said you're in 15g pots, so I'm sure watering with anything but a hose is a total bitch. But watering them with some RO water for a while may be worth looking into, at least until the Ca salts get used up.

Salt build up of some sort is an unfortunate risk that some of us on a well/municipal has to take into consideration. Many of these soil blends and recipes were designed with RO water in mind, because the water isn't adding a single input to the soil if it's RO.
 
PadawanWarrior

PadawanWarrior

Well-Known Member
kratos015 said:
That's exactly it, because unfortunately these salts will build up over a matter of time. You said you're in 15g pots, so I'm sure watering with anything but a hose is a total bitch. But watering them with some RO water for a while may be worth looking into, at least until the Ca salts get used up.

Salt build up of some sort is an unfortunate risk that some of us on a well/municipal has to take into consideration. Many of these soil blends and recipes were designed with RO water in mind, because the water isn't adding a single input to the soil if it's RO.
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Thanks again Kratos.
 
kovidkough

kovidkough

Well-Known Member
Nutty sKunK said:
I found this chart contradicts the mulders chart. Excess N doesn’t interfere with calcium..
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Antagonism: High levels of a particular nutrient in the soil can interfere with the availability and uptake of other nutrients. For example, high nitrogen levels can reduce the availability of boron, potash and copper; high phosphate levels can influence the uptake of iron, calcium, potash, copper and zinc; high potash levels can reduce the availability of magnesium. Thus, the application of high levels of nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium can induce plant deficiencies of other essential elements.
 
Nutty sKunK

Nutty sKunK

Well-Known Member
kovidkough said:
Antagonism: High levels of a particular nutrient in the soil can interfere with the availability and uptake of other nutrients. For example, high nitrogen levels can reduce the availability of boron, potash and copper; high phosphate levels can influence the uptake of iron, calcium, potash, copper and zinc; high potash levels can reduce the availability of magnesium. Thus, the application of high levels of nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium can induce plant deficiencies of other essential elements.
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Exactly lol P messes with Ca intake but not N which that chart says
 
green_machine_two9er

green_machine_two9er

Well-Known Member
PadawanWarrior said:
I did say that, so you're not mistaken. If I did give it any OSF, it was a small amount I would guess because I don't actually remember giving it to them. I do have some, but it's barely used, if at all. Also I wouldn't of given it to all my pots if I did, so I don't think I really added any extra besides what the Craft Blend already has. I was using that liberally though for awhile.

I think my pH is OK. I just started to add langbeinite to my mixes to see if it helps, but I'm starting with a really small amount. The Craft Blend had some, but I've been trying to use less since it has the other Ca that I don't think I want now. How much langbeinite do you think is safe to top dress my 15 gal pots?

I've got the basalt you recommended, but I haven't started using it yet. That's next on my list of amendments to start adding. I should probably cut out the Craft Blend all together for awhile and see how if it helps, because that's the only source of gypsum it gets, not to mention all the other Ca based stuff. It just worked really well at first, but I think it might be making my Ca levels too high. Again, I'm still a rookie and am just trying to learn this shit, lol.

I think you're totally on it that the Ca built up over time. It's not a crazy amount of Ca in my water and top dressing, but it builds up over time, and when I'm not watering until runoff, the excess has no where to go. Again, this is just a thought. That's why I'm asking you pro's.

That plant I first showed is still vegging, and I have plenty of room to add more top dressing or compost under my mulch when I need to, but they're already in 15 gal pots. I couldn't imagine tansplanting them, lol. It totally would love it though if I could manage it.

Thanks again Kratos. Now you can read my book, lol.
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I briefly went through most your replies here and tons of solid info. I'm going to throw something at ya, correct me if I'm wrong. Your truly shooting for a long term no-till. I believe firmly that this is completely different idea that recycled organic mixes and practices. after using the same pot for 2 years if takes a full regimen of cover cropping, fresh Castings 2-3 times per run, harvest said cover crops and turning under, top dressing, Green mulch, straw mulch et. Im looking at your pictures and dont see much happening at the soil level.

The elements we Add via amendments and topdressing don't work like we think the do, its a LONG term game, years and years, even more so with minerals. Nutrient cycling in No till is much more dependent on all these practices stated above, more so than just adding this or that, chasing your tail.

As far as the problem right here and now, its hard to fix by adding more K or Less Ca, I would focus on the no-till pot itself, sow some cover crops in, build a soil has some really nice blends. then 1" Fresh EWC, followed by Straw mulch. Once your living mulch/cover crop come in, hit it with MBP for the fungal food. Clover with help establish super thriving Fungal Networks. Deep rooting plants such as yarrow, and legumes Fixate N, but more importantly for long term beds increase soil fertility and aeration. Roots break down to NPK, plants break down to NPK, by adding this step you really unlock no-till. I think about the added Organic matter in the form of roots as building the soil up, top dressing and adding all your Green leaf and Suckers, as well as turning companion crops into green mulch is feeding top down. there needs to be a thick humus layer/living mulch hungry monster ready to gobble up any decomposing stuff laid on top the mulch.

Thats where I would start before Adding anything else to the equation. PH can regulate itself with proper buffering plan according to your mix as stated.
 
PadawanWarrior

PadawanWarrior

Well-Known Member
green_machine_two9er said:
I briefly went through most your replies here and tons of solid info. I'm going to throw something at ya, correct me if I'm wrong. Your truly shooting for a long term no-till. I believe firmly that this is completely different idea that recycled organic mixes and practices. after using the same pot for 2 years if takes a full regimen of cover cropping, fresh Castings 2-3 times per run, harvest said cover crops and turning under, top dressing, Green mulch, straw mulch et. Im looking at your pictures and dont see much happening at the soil level.

The elements we Add via amendments and topdressing don't work like we think the do, its a LONG term game, years and years, even more so with minerals. Nutrient cycling in No till is much more dependent on all these practices stated above, more so than just adding this or that, chasing your tail.

As far as the problem right here and now, its hard to fix by adding more K or Less Ca, I would focus on the no-till pot itself, sow some cover crops in, build a soil has some really nice blends. then 1" Fresh EWC, followed by Straw mulch. Once your living mulch/cover crop come in, hit it with MBP for the fungal food. Clover with help establish super thriving Fungal Networks. Deep rooting plants such as yarrow, and legumes Fixate N, but more importantly for long term beds increase soil fertility and aeration. Roots break down to NPK, plants break down to NPK, by adding this step you really unlock no-till. I think about the added Organic matter in the form of roots as building the soil up, top dressing and adding all your Green leaf and Suckers, as well as turning companion crops into green mulch is feeding top down. there needs to be a thick humus layer/living mulch hungry monster ready to gobble up any decomposing stuff laid on top the mulch.

Thats where I would start before Adding anything else to the equation. PH can regulate itself with proper buffering plan according to your mix as stated.
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No, I don't have a cover crop. I do have the white Dutch clover from BAS that I've been experimenting with in a couple houseplant pots.

I just have a mulch layer of rice hulls over the soil. So It's kinda a halfass no-till.
 
green_machine_two9er

green_machine_two9er

Well-Known Member
PadawanWarrior said:
No, I don't have a cover crop. I do have the white Dutch clover from BAS that I've been experimenting with in a couple houseplant pots.

I just have a mulch layer of rice hulls over the soil. So It's kinda a halfass no-till.
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Well I think you nailed it on the head. check out my current grow journal, i have some 15 gallon no tills getting ramped up, just to visualize your soil layer and the true difference between smaller pots and traditional recycling methods.
 
PadawanWarrior

PadawanWarrior

Well-Known Member
green_machine_two9er said:
Well I think you nailed it on the head. check out my current grow journal, i have some 15 gallon no tills getting ramped up, just to visualize your soil layer and the true difference between smaller pots and traditional recycling methods.
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I'm using 15 gal pots now. What do you think I nailed on the head? Too much Ca or that I need a cover crop?

Thanks
 
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