Why Hydroponic chemical is worth more then Organic!

^^^....both above posts are spot on. Ill never bash hydro, they're great systems. But agree 100% that its about genetics and the grower being able to get their potential. And knowing his/her system inside and out. Its just my opinion that I grow better bud in an organic or technically veganic way but it has to do wkth the passion and knowlesge I have for the system athe pride I have in it. Its to each their own. Jjst like tastes are intangible, what tastes amazing to some may not to othees.....as long as the end result is quality g....life is good right

Kite High said:

genetics then environment to exploit those genetics that is what makes the grower great IMO

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Knowledge is what makes a great grower. Knowledge.

Kite High said:

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  Summary:
  
  Preharvest flushing puts the plant(s) under serious stress. The plant has to deal with nutrient deficiencies in a very important part of its cycle. Strong changes in the amount of dissolved substances in the root-zone stress the roots, possibly to the point of direct physical damage to them. Many immobile elements are no more available for further metabolic processes. We are loosing the fan leaves and damage will show likely on new growth as well.
  
  The grower should react in an educated way to the plant needs. Excessive, deficient or unbalanced levels should be avoided regardless the nutrient source. Nutrient levels should be gradually adjusted to the lesser needs in later flowering. Stress factors should be limited as far as possible. If that is accomplished throughout the entire life cycle, there shouldn’t be any excessive nutrient compounds in the plants tissue. It doesn’t sound likely to the author that you can correct growing errors (significant lower mobile nutrient compound levels) with preharvest flushing.
  
  Drying and curing (when done right) on the other hand have proved (In many studies) to have a major impact on taste and flavour, by breaking down chlorophylls and converting starches into sugars. Most attributes blamed on unflushed buds may be the result of unbalanced nutrition and/or overfert and unproper drying/curing."​
  
  

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No matter what anyone says, I notice serious taste benefits to an extra long flush. The only deficiency I get at the end of harvest is a slight nitrogen deficiency which IMO will improve taste without a serious negative side effect. I go heavy on PK boosters late in flowering so even with a long flush no deficiency is present. I feed the same way, I dry cure the same way, so those are not variables in this situation.

What that article says may very well be true if you're feeding with only a 1 or two part system and nothing else, but I do not believe that to be true when using pk boosters towards the end of flowering. If the flushing is causing a major deficiency in phosphorus or potassium I could see why that would be correct, but if it's not causing a deficiency in those, I do not think you're really harming the plant at all. Basically it's just bleeding out excess nutrients, mainly nitrogen, which is a good thing IMO.

Bottom line is flushed bud tastes better. I've tried it with and without flushing in my own system and the results are pretty clear. It's not a difference in nutrient regiments nor drying curing since those things remain constants. The variable is the flush. With a longer flush it tastes better plain and simple. Any explanation that says otherwise is just false IMO. It doesn't matter how sciency the explanation sounds, if it contradicts reality it's still wrong.

everyone is entitled to their opinion be it wrong or right...I disagree with you only about pre harvest flush pretty much agree with everything else you have been stating... IME flushing has screwed it up and not flushing does not...So since in my reality it agrees with the "sciencey explanation" I will stick to the science

Dan, please tell me how you cqn dismiss science? Please do, when the fact of growing a plant is science and it took science to tell us that nitrogen levwls need to be high in veg and pk in flower? Also, in all these posts, you only speak of npk? 3 of the 6 macronutes and haven't said anything of the micronutes? Also, there could be more variables to you tests you ran. Please elaborate on your experiment and your hypothesis of flushing. How many side by side grows were ran, was temp of water for feeding exactly the same on every feeding. Were ppm/ec exactly the same, was ph exactly the same. See where I'm goin? Even if they were close to being similar, if it was at all different, its a variable and can lead to an inconclusive test.

This isn't be debating flushing, its me standing up for science. Hell half of the hydro systems are science based, HPA/HPAA is derived from NASA?? You seem extremely stuck in your ways, so keep on flushing man...

Also, what do you think about terpenes? Are they non essential? They are only the building blocks of essential oils (ie resin, cbd, cbn) and are natures seasoning. They are a huge part of taste and aroma, especially in cannabis. At the same time, they are easily dissipated. Sensitive to light and humidity....I recommend studying some science, plant anatomy and organic chem and learn the whys to things. And maybe taking a look at your drying curing process, to maximize taste and aroma and to keep from the loss of terpenes during the process. ImO your bud taste better flushed bc you are heavy on ferts and its the only way to rid your stash ofthat chemical taste. So yeah I agree, your buds probably taste cleaner, but until you actually understand the science behind taste and aroma of cannqbis, you'll never maximize it's potential...once again opinion based. And yes, sciencey too if that's alright.

Mithrandir420 said:

Knowledge is what makes a great grower. Knowledge.

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tempered with experience I agree

danknuggs419 said:

Dan, please tell me how you cqn dismiss science?

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I don't actually know the science. But I do know the reality. The reality doesn't match up with what that article claims. That article btw is not science. It's not a pier reviewed study or anything, it's some anonymous dude with a blog who uses lots of sciency words.

He knows the right words to sound credible, but the problem is what he's saying contradicts what I know to be true based on personal experience. Science is not faith. Basically you're saying I should have faith in an anonymous dude with a blog because he knows lots of sciency words even though it contradicts reality.

Sorry, but growers who pretend they are some sort of scientist are a dime a dozen. Most of them are completely full of shit. I literally know dozens of people like that who just talk out their ass all day but expect people to believe whatever they are saying because they mix in a few sciency words.

Science is proof and evidence, not just some random dude who knows sciency words. The evidence I've seen says that's incorrect. When I do a 2 week flush my plants do not develop crippling deficiencies that reduce quality and yield, they just develop a better taste. Sciency words does not change that. I do this grow method over and over again and it works out just fine. That to me is evidence. It's evidence that even though that dude knows sciency words what he is saying isn't true.

Please do, when the fact of growing a plant is science and it took science to tell us that nitrogen levwls need to be high in veg and pk in flower?

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I'm not arguing that science is bad, I'm arguing that what you presented is not actual science.

Also, in all these posts, you only speak of npk? 3 of the 6 macronutes and haven't said anything of the micronutes?

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Ok fine, when flushing for an extended period I do not notice any micro-nutrient deficiency either.

Also, there could be more variables to you tests you ran. Please elaborate on your experiment and your hypothesis of flushing. How many side by side grows were ran, was temp of water for feeding exactly the same on every feeding. Were ppm/ec exactly the same, was ph exactly the same. See where I'm goin? Even if they were close to being similar, if it was at all different, its a variable and can lead to an inconclusive test.

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I see where you're going, you're grasping at straws and bringing up irrelevant information. I'll speak about what's relevant. The ppms/ec were roughly the same each cycle up until the point of flushing.

Sorry, but I've done too many grow cycles not to know this. When I flush longer, my buds taste better. It's that simple.

This isn't be debating flushing, its me standing up for science. Hell half of the hydro systems are science based, HPA/HPAA is derived from NASA?? You seem extremely stuck in your ways, so keep on flushing man...

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If you were standing up for science you'd be, you know, showing me actual scientific studies. You're not doing that. You're citing random dudes on the internet you use words out of a biology 101 textbook and pretending it's science.

And yes, I'm "stuck" in my ways because I have a system that grows lots of dense, strong, high yielding buds that look and taste amazing. Why wouldn't I want to be stuck in those ways"?

Also, what do you think about terpenes? Are they non essential? They are only the building blocks of essential oils (ie resin, cbd, cbn) and are natures seasoning. They are a huge part of taste and aroma, especially in cannabis. At the same time, they are easily dissipated. Sensitive to light and humidity...

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Yes, terps are very important and I never said otherwise, but go a head and pretend I did if that makes you feel more sciency.

I recommend studying some science, plant anatomy and organic chem and learn the whys to things.

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Yeah, most growers who think they are some sort of organic chemists are generally full of shit in my experience. I see them all the time and with all the knowledge they pretend to have, I still put out a better product that just about all of them.

I know the science I need to know, and when I don't know something, I have actual experts I consult, rather than anonymous internet bloggers. I have a guy teaches masters classes at UC Davis who helps me with my organics (who by the way thinks indoor organics is a joke). When I develop problems, he examines my soil under an electron microscope and tells me exactly what I need to fix it. That is science. The use of biology 101 words to explain why something that is true isn't true is not science.

It's that same type of sciency talk that plagues this forum with such bullshit as a 70 page thread on cloning fan leaves and the wonders of growing with LED's. People using a bunch of sciency words to explain their bs even though it doesn't match up to reality.

And maybe taking a look at your drying curing process, to maximize taste and aroma and to keep from the loss of terpenes during the process.

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My drying/curing process is as legit as it gets. My buds have their own climate controlled room just for them. I frequently store my outdoor from winter to summer and when I open those jars up in the summer, they smell fresh as hell.

You're pretending I have some sort of problem with the taste of my bud when I actually do not have that problem at all. I'll put the taste of my hydro up against just about any organic bud out there. Why you think that's a problem that needs fixing is beyond me.

The only taste problems I've ever had is when I do not flush my plants long enough before harvesting. I've been using the exact same process for the last decade and it works just fine.

ImO your bud taste better flushed bc you are heavy on ferts and its the only way to rid your stash ofthat chemical taste. So yeah I agree, your buds probably taste cleaner, but until you actually understand the science behind taste and aroma of cannqbis, you'll never maximize it's potential...once again opinion based. And yes, sciencey too if that's alright.

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Yep, definitely to sciencey. If you have actual science, I'd love to see it, but I get bored with grower psudo-science real quick. Every stoner seems to think they are a scientist these days.

i like to grow in soil and use hydro nutes

best of both worlds

cannabineer said:

I found the toothpaste with elemental fluorine in it to be too spicy, and my breath etched the bathroom mirror. But man are my teeth white. I also am compounding rhenium and enriched uranium in my flower formula. Such dense buds, oh my. And I'm able to do away with the res heater. cn

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Do you use a toothbrush or just open your mouth while sliding along?

Kite High said:

IME flushing has screwed it up and not flushing does not...So since in my reality it agrees with the "sciencey explanation" I will stick to the science

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The difference here could be nutrient regiments. I go light on A&B, bottle recommended dosage on CalMg, Then slam it hard with pk boosters in the two weeks before flushing. I also hit my plants pretty heavy with N booster the week before I flip to 12/12. It's possible I'm just feeding it heavier with marco nutrients, requiring me to burn them off before harvesting, where you are not. That would explain why flushing causes problems for you while making my bud taste better.

So yeah, we are probably arguing over nothing here, both right when running our different nutrient regiments.

Dan Kone said:

The difference here could be nutrient regiments. I go light on A&B, bottle recommended dosage on CalMg, Then slam it hard with pk boosters in the two weeks before flushing. I also hit my plants pretty heavy with N booster the week before I flip to 12/12. It's possible I'm just feeding it heavier with marco nutrients, requiring me to burn them off before harvesting, where you are not. That would explain why flushing causes problems for you while making my bud taste better.

So yeah, we are probably arguing over nothing here, both right when running our different nutrient regiments.

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sounds good to me, i over fert too so maybe thats why it works for me as well

danknuggs419 said:

Dan, please tell me how you cqn dismiss science? ......snip.....

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The point you're missing is Dan is growing from years of experience. He has his grow methods dialed in for specifically what works in his niche environment. He is using science and it's working just fine for him. Just because he can't quote specific botanical terms of art for why what he is doing works doesn't invalidate his grow methods nor does it invalidate science.

Oh Dan very well does know his shit and is a great asset...he most probably pegged it exactly correct in that what he does serves his way and I mine

Dan Kone said:

Hydro massively out yields organics, so there is that too.

You get faster growing plants which are capable of producing bigger, denser buds. I don't pretend to know the biology behind this, just the results

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+1 IMO, that's the major difference. My friend and I have been growing clones from the same Serious Seed's White Russian mother for the last year. I do RDWC and he does hand-watered soil. We both average a little over six ounces per plant. The taste and high is similar, but I produce noticeably chunkier nugs. The major difference is that I veg my plants for two weeks and then throw them into flower. The plants then blow up into nice bushes that can hold their own weight until I cut them down. To get the same yield, my friend has to veg his plants for six or seven weeks and they don't hold their own weight very well. Of course, there's also the fact that I spend a lot less money on rocks and GH than he does on all of the organic stuff he uses...

curious2garden said:

The point you're missing is Dan is growing from years of experience. He has his grow methods dialed in for specifically what works in his niche environment. He is using science and it's working just fine for him. Just because he can't quote specific botanical terms of art for why what he is doing works doesn't invalidate his grow methods nor does it invalidate science.

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And also I'm not dismissing science, I'm dismissing pseudoscience

hedinclouds said:

Yah...you're dummin pretty good
Well...I usually am not the kind of person to throw my degree around BUT I have my doctoral degree in neuropsychology and you are a little off key. Since you displayed a total lack of intelligent thinking i think id like to give you some help. Of course, taking one or two classes in chemistry tells us nothing and is not a credible statement. Secondly, yes , nature has a way to pollute just as much as humans naturally. However, chemicals are found in many products such as coffee, frappuccinos,, GMO foods (which Europeans have banned...I wonder why...) and just about any fruit, vegetable, meat you buy at any Vons or Albertsons. Unless you are procuring your food straight from the farm. You are ingesting chemicals. Now for my degree. Due to my profession and where I work, i will not link you to the study that I conducted which earned my degree. we tested neuro pathways with chemically altered foods such as GMO, against farm raised ORGANIC foods. During this study, those who only ingested GMO suffered from more anxiety, mood alterations such as mood swings sporadic high altered temparment, as well as increased levels of depression 10x more then those who chose organic foods. Thirdly, the little list you listed above from ROOTS ORGANICS PHOS BAT GUANO 0-7-0, all contain every metal and eliment currently found in our bodies and has been so for as long as we could remember.
please, I know i used a few complicated words such as GMO and neuro-pathways so please do not strain yourself and take this reading lightly, with intelligent observation as you should with all aspects of life. I employ you to continue to educate yourself to the highest potential.

Oh , and bath-salts, SPICE ...same stuff the face eater and others currently around the world have used...psst, they all use chemicals found in those great nutes you care so deeply for . So why don't you use that 4credit course in chemistry and cook bath salts instead. that seems up your alley.

FLORIDE is bad when injested in large amounts. Brushing your grille with floride is actually the best thing you could do to protect your pearly white investment. Knowledge is power!!

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It looks like the college you earned your degree at forgot to give you classes in the English language. I implore YOU to learn how to fucking type correctly before you insult other peoples intelligence.

Dan Kone said:

And also I'm not dismissing science, I'm dismissing pseudoscience

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Dan You crack me up. YES you are dismissing pseudoscience but they don't like you to tell them that LOL!! That's not PC Ha! Too true.

I'd like to enter my evidence for the hydro Vs organics argument.

Still about a week or two from harvest, but you get the idea. I'll switch to organics when it can do this:








You want to know why grow hydro? I want to know why settle for less than a # per light? Does this look like a major quality reduction? I don't think so.

Dan Kone said:

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what strain is that? I think you would like Purple Kush... Purple Kush can feed though... 2.7ec and BLAM!

C'mon now DK take the yellow outta dem pics so we can see them.