Why I think Tax Cuts For The Rich Are Good?

Tax cuts for the Rich

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Bonzi Lighthouse

Bonzi Lighthouse

Well-Known Member
Serapis said:
You can call it what you will, I do not consider it a tax increase, I consider it the end of a tax cut. We have tried for many years in the past to grant tax cuts to our wealthiest Americans, who by the way, just keep getting richer, while we take away benefits from the poor and elderly.
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Potato, Potato taking more money than they are taking now is an increase. It's kinda like when they we being debated to extend that it would add to the deficit. Huh??? As far as the wealthiest Americans would you rather they be poor? Please find your own talking points as the scare tactics of taking benefits from the poor and elderly are just that scare tatics. We will take take of those in need, just not they way we are doing it now.

Serapis said:
I don't see how anyone with a conscience can ask Grandma to give up her Medicare benefits so Donald Trump can afford a new yacht every year.
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Grandma ain't gonna lose her benefits, and what Mr. Trump SPENDS HIS MONEY on is his business. BTW how many people does Mr Trump support through his carious enterprises?

Serapis said:
The reason our debt has greatly increased is due to lost revenue, lost from a tax base that experience double digit unemployment, a low consumer confidence index, and tax cuts to the wealthiest Americans.
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I respectively disagree

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=200


Serapis said:
And if you do give the wealthy even more, and then turn around and ask the elderly to accept vouchers instead of health care, who is to say those wealthy Americans benefiting from even higher tax cuts will invest their money in new jobs and ventures? They may simply purchase stocks, bonds, CD's, etc.... simply transferring money from one individual to another, creating 0 new jobs.
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DING DING DING you are getting it (even though you don't realize it).

THEY INVEST they don't hoard or just spend it.

Serapis said:
Trickle down economics doesn't work. It didn't work under Reagan or bush, it's not going to work under anyone.
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Serapis said:
You give them tax breaks, then they still look for loopholes.
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Of course they do, don't you?

Serapis said:
They even hide money in offshore accounts.
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Don't give them a reason to hide it.

Serapis said:
Remember how many rich and patriotic Americans were hiding money in Swiss accounts that came forward to take advantage of Obama's amnesty? hundreds of the roaches did....
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No I don't

Serapis said:
The government is mandated to collect revenues and fund the national security of this country.
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And we are changing that mandate

Serapis said:
I agree with your statement that they should get back to governing, and part of that is to collect taxes, not give them away.....
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Thats all the government does is give money away, they like to call it investing when in reality it is spending

Serapis said:
btw.... Most new jobs today are created by small business, not the wealthy.....
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And by Obama's own definition small business ARE THE RICH.
 
jeff f

jeff f

New Member
Serapis said:
, who by the way, just keep getting richer, while we take away benefits from the poor and elderly. I don't see how anyone with a conscience can ask Grandma to give up her Medicare benefits so Donald Trump can afford a new yacht every year. ....
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please explain what benefits have been taken away from the poor and grandma. all i see is more and more larger govt handouts.
 
Serapis

Serapis

Well-Known Member
You didn't address the failed economics of trickle down.. why would you suggest even more tax cuts when we have history to show us they don't work... why is it going to work now? Can you explain what is different? Since we have enacted tax cuts to rich, we have had two recessions, one coming close to the great depression. I believe history has already had her say on giving breaks to wealthy tax payers....

Potato, Potato taking more money than they are taking now is an increase. It's kinda like when they we being debated to extend that it would add to the deficit. Huh??? As far as the wealthiest Americans would you rather they be poor? Please find your own talking points as the scare tactics of taking benefits from the poor and elderly are just that scare tatics. We will take take of those in need, just not they way we are doing it now.
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Look, the cuts had an expiration date for a reason, it was a temporary reprieve unter the false guise it would boost the economy... it had the exact opposite effect.

Obama has NEVER refered to small business as the rich, nor has he sought tax increases on them. He knows where the new jobs are coming from, the man is not an idiot. Show me where is penalizing small business in the health care reform OR his proposed ending of wealthy tax breaks? You can't, because there is none...
 
Serapis

Serapis

Well-Known Member
Then it would be your duty to point them out to back up your observation.... Did you hear the speech? If you want to counter his points, use facts... eliminating medicare and issuing vouchers that will decrease in value sounds like taking benefits away.... raising the retirement age requirements for SS sounds like lower benefits to me... and in the very same bill, they want to give more wealthy tax breaks? LOL... too funny.... the GOP is very transparent....

jeff f said:
please explain what benefits have been taken away from the poor and grandma. all i see is more and more larger govt handouts.
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Bonzi Lighthouse

Bonzi Lighthouse

Well-Known Member
Serapis said:
You didn't address the failed economics of trickle down.. why would you suggest even more tax cuts when we have history to show us they don't work... why is it going to work now? Can you explain what is different? Since we have enacted tax cuts to rich, we have had two recessions, one coming close to the great depression. I believe history has already had her say on giving breaks to wealthy tax payers....
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And how does increasing taxes and spending more money stimulate the ecomony? It does not, it grows government, did you even look ar the deficits in the chart? You can't spend your way out of a recession!

Serapis said:
Look, the cuts had an expiration date for a reason, it was a temporary reprieve unter the false guise it would boost the economy... it had the exact opposite effect.
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It was temporary cause thats was the compromise. We are coming out of a recession and you want to increase taxes, so you can sustain current spending????

Serapis said:
Obama has NEVER refered to small business as the rich, nor has he sought tax increases on them. He knows where the new jobs are coming from, the man is not an idiot. Show me where is penalizing small business in the health care reform OR his proposed ending of wealthy tax breaks? You can't, because there is none...
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President Barack Obama has argued that the wealthiest Americans should take on a greater tax burden, and has promised that his tax increases would not affect those earning below $250,000 per year ($200,000 for single filers). This hits small business square in the chops.
 
Serapis

Serapis

Well-Known Member
And how does increasing taxes and spending more money stimulate the ecomony? It does not, it grows government, did you even look ar the deficits in the chart? You can't spend your way out of a recession!
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You are still avoiding a direct question.... How will additional funds lost to trickle down economics work, when history shows they contributed to two recessions? Why will giving an additional 3 trillion in new breaks work?

It was temporary cause thats was the compromise. We are coming out of a recession and you want to increase taxes, so you can sustain current spending????
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No, not at all... we want to end the temporary tax cuts that didn't work and use that revenue to start paying down the national debt, while at the same time, balancing the budget. We did it in the 90's and we'll do it again. those tax breaks are lost revenue which is not benefiting the job market as we had hoped. Their time has come, let them expire.

President Barack Obama has argued that the wealthiest Americans should take on a greater tax burden, and has promised that his tax increases would not affect those earning below $250,000 per year ($200,000 for single filers). This hits small business square in the chops.
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Actually, no he hasn't. He is calling for them to now pay their fair share. If i pay 25% on my income, so should Donald trump.... Not asking him to share alarger piece of pie, just the exact same percentage. Please explain how small business will be hit in the chops? Most small businesses do not make more than $250k in profit. Small businesses pay an average tax rate of 13.3%. Small business is defined as businesses with less than $10 million dollars in annual receipts. 84% of small businesses with sole proprietorship report less than $25k in taxable income. So please explain to me how small business is taking it in the chops....

Facts and figures come straight from the SBA.... http://archive.sba.gov/advo/research/rs343.pdf
 
MrDank007

MrDank007

Well-Known Member
Serapis, you are making a leap of correlation. There was a tax break for during this recession, therefore tax breaks cause recessions. Nevermind loose credit and underwriting standards. Nevermind the bond market and secondary market were crippled and there was no liquidty floating around. Nevermind the housing market in general.
 
carl.burnette

carl.burnette

Well-Known Member
Everyone should pay the same PERCENTAGE of tax. 5%, 15%.. what ever it is. That would be totally fair. But I am of the opinion that business' should NOT pay taxes because they don't anyways.

Look at it this way. Westons makes bread. They make money & have to pay say $5 million in taxes. They include that as a cost of business & simply pass the costs onto the consumer (thats US) so we pay $2.00 a loaf instead of $1.90 now, if they didn't have to PAY that tax they would have $5 million in savings & we would pay less for bread.
What would YOU do with that money? You (like myself) would spend it. It would disappear in 1-3 years (note the number of lottery winners who are broke later on with their lives destroyed)
The Westons (or any other successful company/person) would invest that money, build another plant, buy new equipment etc. Thus lowering thier cost to produce the loaf of bread & we as the consumer see the savings in the cost of the loaf. OR they would hire another shift of people to produce the bread because the costs are lower more people are buying bread. Those people who get hired pay taxes, buy houses, shoes etc. That's how the economy works. (I went to college :) )

Rich people are rich for a reason. They know what their doing (yes there are exceptions like inheritance) . If *I* had a million dollars I would BEG Donald Trump to take it & invest it for me because I KNOW he's gonna turn it into $50 Million. It's what they do. You give a millskie to some poor as bastard & all you've done is wasted the million.

I know this opinion isn't popular but its the truth. Im a successful business man myself & I know the secret of success is to surround yourself with people who are smarter than yourself. I know there are professional money people & THOSE are the people you want to have as much in their hands as possible because they create & run the economy.

We can get pissy at the banks & what not but there had never been a time in human history where more people own their own homes. Now that the housing market has crapped out, you have even MORE people buying houses because of the prices. Why sit with $75K in the bank earning next to nothing in interest. Buy a house instead & rent it out. Carries itself & still goes up at least 1% a year which is better than what you get on a savings account.
Its a dip now but you watch 5 -15 years from now BOOM times because so many people have purchases houses & as prices creep up they will sell them for more money & in the mean time they will have to rent them out, thus lowering the monthly rents everywhere because of the competition.

FUck it.. TRUMP FOR PRES 2012!!!! Woohoo!!!!
 
Balzac89

Balzac89

Undercover Mod
The last 9 years of tax cuts for the wealthy did zilch for the economy and put us further into debt.

If you support that, your an idiot.
 
Balzac89

Balzac89

Undercover Mod
After leaving the Presidency, Lyndon B. Johnson, a Democrat, alleged, "Republicans [...] simply don't know how to manage the economy. They're so busy operating the trickle-down theory, giving the richest corporations the biggest break, that the whole thing goes to hell in a handbasket."
 
Serapis

Serapis

Well-Known Member
And those that were unwisely investing heavily into securities backed by poor mortgages took advantage of what tax credits? ;) I'm not blaming the cuts solely for the recession, in fact I specifically used the word 'contributed' to....

Show me where the economy has sustained growth during tax cuts and I'll consider your position. When you deprive the US Government of revenue, you deprive it of the ability to invest in our future. The Republicans initiated and passed a 1.4 TRILLION dollar prescription benefit WITHOUT funding it.... Not only that, we initiated a pre-emptive war in which we are still losing treasure and blood. What will it take for some of you to wake up and realize that the GOP is not out to improve America and her future? I think My Ryan's plan makes their intent VERY clear....

MrDank007 said:
Serapis, you are making a leap of correlation. There was a tax break for during this recession, therefore tax breaks cause recessions. Nevermind loose credit and underwriting standards. Nevermind the bond market and secondary market were crippled and there was no liquidty floating around. Nevermind the housing market in general.
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jeff f

jeff f

New Member
Serapis said:
Then it would be your duty to point them out to back up your observation.... Did you hear the speech? If you want to counter his points, use facts... eliminating medicare and issuing vouchers that will decrease in value sounds like taking benefits away.... raising the retirement age requirements for SS sounds like lower benefits to me... and in the very same bill, they want to give more wealthy tax breaks? LOL... too funny.... the GOP is very transparent....
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So your answer is they haven't taken benefits away. Just as I suspected. Handouts to leeches needs to stop. I wish they were being cut but they haven't been since 95 welfare reform.
 
colocowboy

colocowboy

Well-Known Member
Bonzi Lighthouse said:
Where are these piles of cash? It's invested, treasuries (uck) munies, Money market, bonds stocks this money is not just sitting there it is working.

Money makes money and the money money makes makes more money.
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This is the ideology that caused the problem, it is called fiscal irresponsibility. That notion is a deck of cards, the "bubbles" are manifestations of this. I DO know economics, while my major wasn't econ it was what I took for upper division electives for FUN while getting my business degree!
Those "investments" are not a representation of "work", it is a gamble and nothing more. When you have the money and power to effectively lobby and control the regulation you have what those who lost their retirement in that ideology would call a crime!
Money cannot "work", work is where you actually perform some action in expectation of some resulting value, while you can apply those words to the act of gambling, most people don't expect to loose their life savings as a result of "work". Would you show up to and complete your job if there was a chance you wouldn't get your pay check? It is not appropriate to have that level of risk associated to ever tier of income either. Mincing words to support a broken ideal is flimsy, going from a to c by means of word wrangling is disingenuous and very much a problem among the popular vernacular opposing this viewpoint.

Invested in properties, vehicles, recreational vehicles..... opulence, excess, and greater use of the systems at large.... period...... it is not a matter of opinion.
Flat tax has the problem that it discourages low income liquid spending but the appropriate graduated tax looks bad on paper.
Ultimately the only way we can even start on the right path is to term limit congress, eliminating special interest voices direct access to policy makers. To accompany the lack of restriction to campaign funding a transparency rule should follow requiring divulging who is funding.
Nothing can be said for people that choose to suckle a preferred tit for information and propagate lies for lack of at least diligence. Our complacent society has come the point of utter absurdity and thinking that the veil of civilization is any deeper than three days without a meal is naive.
 
MrDank007

MrDank007

Well-Known Member
Serapis said:
And those that were unwisely investing heavily into securities backed by poor mortgages took advantage of what tax credits? ;) I'm not blaming the cuts solely for the recession, in fact I specifically used the word 'contributed' to....

Show me where the economy has sustained growth during tax cuts and I'll consider your position. When you deprive the US Government of revenue, you deprive it of the ability to invest in our future. The Republicans initiated and passed a 1.4 TRILLION dollar prescription benefit WITHOUT funding it.... Not only that, we initiated a pre-emptive war in which we are still losing treasure and blood. What will it take for some of you to wake up and realize that the GOP is not out to improve America and her future? I think My Ryan's plan makes their intent VERY clear....
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Consider that we had a slide in 2001 and 2002 and things were pretty good up until about 2007...Also as i have stated before I don't bleed GOP. Taking advantage of tax breaks and investing unwisely...hindsight is 20/20. It's really not fair to make that statement and basically when you cut through the what ifs...the answer can not be that hampering investment is a good thing. The mortgage fiasco...yeah that was a bad thing.

Now consider large expeditures (abnormal capital expenses) such as the war, bailouts ect. Clearly the stats need to incorporate all of these things. My biggest problem with most stats is that they very broad and correlations are drawn from them without underwriting all the variables. Could you make the arguement that the gov wouldn't need anymore money if what they had was allocated properly? I bet you could.

I have to agree with the op when it comes to ROI. Everytime a politician says future or infanstructure you can supplement the word bullshit cause the money never seems to get there.
 
Bonzi Lighthouse

Bonzi Lighthouse

Well-Known Member
Serapis said:
You are still avoiding a direct question.... How will additional funds lost to trickle down economics work, when history shows they contributed to two recessions? Why will giving an additional 3 trillion in new breaks work?
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No, you my friend are not answering the question that is the basis for this discussion. Who should control the wealth of this nation?

See you look at the money as though it is the Governments and they are losing it. IT IS NOT THEIRS IT IS OURS!!!!!!




No, not at all... we want to end the temporary tax cuts that didn't work and use that revenue to start paying down the national debt, while at the same time, balancing the budget. We did it in the 90's and we'll do it again. those tax breaks are lost revenue which is not benefiting the job market as we had hoped. Their time has come, let them expire.

The only way to cut the deficit is to control spending, not raise taxes to cover the debts incured in the last 2 years.


Actually, no he hasn't. He is calling for them to now pay their fair share. If i pay 25% on my income, so should Donald trump.... Not asking him to share alarger piece of pie, just the exact same percentage. Please explain how small business will be hit in the chops? Most small businesses do not make more than $250k in profit. Small businesses pay an average tax rate of 13.3%. Small business is defined as businesses with less than $10 million dollars in annual receipts. 84% of small businesses with sole proprietorship report less than $25k in taxable income. So please explain to me how small business is taking it in the chops....

Facts and figures come straight from the SBA.... http://archive.sba.gov/advo/research/rs343.pdf[/QUOTE]

Fair share?????????????? Who is funding the Government now... the poor? No the Chineese and the rich.
 
colocowboy

colocowboy

Well-Known Member
Your referring to what handout? Social Security? You PAY for that, you are REQUIRED to as a result of working, it is a tax. It is leaching for our elderly to receive what they paid for? Since that huge $700 a month check is so helpful they have medicare to help them with their health expenses. Having a social floor is a moral imperative and isn't the problem with the economy, you cannot support the claim that social programs are the problem with real numbers from an independent source because it is not true.
Your statements on welfare are incorrect and show ignorance of current programs and alignment with popular dissenting propaganda.

Typically "small businesses" don't report more than a quarter million of profit per year, learn what a balance sheet is and what gross/net income mean...... the word liquidity is pertinent.....
I think I am going to bow out of this one. No point in trying to talk sense in to those with this narrow POV that supports that which will eventually do them in is beyond my ability to entertain.
 
Bonzi Lighthouse

Bonzi Lighthouse

Well-Known Member
colocowboy said:
This is the ideology that caused the problem, it is called fiscal irresponsibility. That notion is a deck of cards, the "bubbles" are manifestations of this. I DO know economics, while my major wasn't econ it was what I took for upper division electives for FUN while getting my business degree!
Those "investments" are not a representation of "work", it is a gamble and nothing more. When you have the money and power to effectively lobby and control the regulation you have what those who lost their retirement in that ideology would call a crime!
Money cannot "work", work is where you actually perform some action in expectation of some resulting value, while you can apply those words to the act of gambling, most people don't expect to loose their life savings as a result of "work". Would you show up to and complete your job if there was a chance you wouldn't get your pay check? It is not appropriate to have that level of risk associated to ever tier of income either. Mincing words to support a broken ideal is flimsy, going from a to c by means of word wrangling is disingenuous and very much a problem among the popular vernacular opposing this viewpoint.

Invested in properties, vehicles, recreational vehicles..... opulence, excess, and greater use of the systems at large.... period...... it is not a matter of opinion.
Flat tax has the problem that it discourages low income liquid spending but the appropriate graduated tax looks bad on paper.
Ultimately the only way we can even start on the right path is to term limit congress, eliminating special interest voices direct access to policy makers. To accompany the lack of restriction to campaign funding a transparency rule should follow requiring divulging who is funding.
Nothing can be said for people that choose to suckle a preferred tit for information and propagate lies for lack of at least diligence. Our complacent society has come the point of utter absurdity and thinking that the veil of civilization is any deeper than three days without a meal is naive.
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Once again this is about who's money it is and who will invest/spend it the most efficient way to grow the economy.
 
Serapis

Serapis

Well-Known Member
yeah, those damn old people on Medicare! what shall we do with all of them? And their damn prescriptions are so expensive... we should just wipe out the millions of them that are taking up space in nursing homes, waiting to die.... we'd be doing them a favor...

[/sarcasm]

jeff f said:
So your answer is they haven't taken benefits away. Just as I suspected. Handouts to leeches needs to stop. I wish they were being cut but they haven't been since 95 welfare reform.
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M

MediMarij

Active Member
Kind of off topic but IMO interconnected with the Big Picture. Can someone explain why some billionaire with morals hasn't started a non profit "group policy" health insurance plan on the simple premise that not all members of the group are sick every day/month/year? This would introduce competition which in turn would lower rates while raise quality of service.
 
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