Has DNA Genetics Seeds Stopped Making Regular Seeds?

Dr. Yo said:

It's a thread to try and get to the bottom of why seed breeders have discontinued carrying regular seeds.

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You may not like the answers, but I think this has been answered already fairly definitively.

Many major seed breeders offer JUST regular seeds of their most sought-after strains, so obviously the business model works and is working for them.

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Markets have their own niches. Some breeders are just "old school" and don't want to bother feminizing lines. Some buyers want only regs, and there are breeders who cater to these buyers. But what works for one breeder doesn't work for all of them. Just like there is a niche for regs, there is a niche for fems too. As a matter of practice, DNA probably sells more beans than 90% of the breeders.

Its funny, I heard a High Times Cup panel with DNA (I think it was Don, can't remember) and Scott from Rare Dankness talking about fems. Scott said something to the effect of "We don't offer fems", and then Don responded "We were the same way once, too. . .you say that now. . .just wait". Market pressure is a real factor here.

I contend that seed breeders would sell just as many seeds if they sold them exclusively regular, and not to mention, people would be forced to buy MORE seed because not all those seeds would be female.

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The ones actually in the business of making and selling beans. . .the ones who know which ones sell and which ones don't. . .all state the contrary, that demand for fem beans exceeds that for regs. With due respect, since they're the ones whose livelihoods depend on moving beans, they're probably in a better position to determine this than you are.

Sure if EVERY breeder simultaneously stopped selling fem beans, they'd end up selling just as many packs of regs, but its a highly competitive marketplace and that's just not realistic.

In terms of volumes, since regular packs are on average 50% female, and since feminized se-eds typically cost 2x the price of regs, cost per fem bean is about the same for buyers and doesn't really play into this. So sure, if breeders were moving 10-packs of regs instead of 5-packs of fems, they'll be moving twice the absolute number of beans. . .but the customer wouldn't be paying more, nor getting more, and the breeders won't be making more money. I've already explained why this cost structure actually favors breeders; they can double the "bean value" of a plant if they use reversed pollen on it (vs regular).

Proof of this is breeders who DON'T carry feminized seed AT ALL, yet are successful and have award winning strains that everyone wants to boot.

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So instead of pining over your girlfriend who dumped you (DNA), why don't you reward the ones who stock excellent regular lines with your business? With enough buyers like you, DNA will happily revert to re-issuing regular lines, where it can. They've done it in with individual strains, and indicated that they intend to do so again. But if most buyers don't care, why should they cater to the small minority like you?

Listen, there aren't "plenty of others" who are willing to offer guaranteed DNA regular seeds of their major seed brands, or at least, anyone that I'd trust enough with my hard-earned money. . . They've lost my business if this is how they want to run their company, although I'm sure all the noobs out there growing for the first time will keep their pockets filled with business for years to come.

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I think there is a misunderstanding here. If the banks are out of DNA regulars, then the only real option to get them is directly from DNA in Europe, assuming they stock any. That's at least possible, if not easy or cheap.

Anyway, there isn't much to say on this anymore, we're going in circles. Personally, I also prefer regs and tend to avoid the "fem only" breeders but even so, I wouldn't let lack of regs prevent me from growing out something in fem form I was otherwise really interested in. We've already talked about how fems aren't really a barrier to breeding.

If you still want regs from DNA, write them a nice letter explaining how you're a satisfied customer who loves their regs, and how you're sorry you feel like you need to take your business elsewhere because you can't buy them anymore. At that point the ball is in their court; either they earn your business or they don't.

Dr. Yo said:

Look, for the last time, I UNDERSTAND I CAN BREED WITH FEMINIZED SEEDS! I've sprayed females and made pollen sacks. That is not the question. I would rather have the male genetics as part of the breeding pair.

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So DNA isn't giving you what you want. Now what?

I think it has more to do with protecting their genetic line from others wishing to 'copy' their genetics without paying them some sort of royalties.

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Nobody in the cannabis se-ed game earns royalties. Feminizing or not feminizing doesn't change this.

Since you know you can breed with fem beans, you also know that releasing fem-onlys wouldn't really stop anyone who wanted to breed with their genetics anyway. Certainly there are plenty of lines created from female plants all the time and many breeders basically do nothing BUT cross female plants and release them as "strains". DNA itself does this. . .the technique is widespread now, and every breeder knows how to do it. If protecting their line were really the goal, why did DNA just release Kosher Kush (which is probably their single highest acclaimed strain to date) in regular form?

And that's sad. No one really 'owns' a strain.

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IMO, this is a huge problem for breeders, and they "should" be able to own them (at least in a limited way, and for a limited time). Why would anyone want to spend years of their life developing and perfecting new strains, that anyone could just come and steal and remarket for the price of a pack? LACK of patent protection actually inhibits new strain development, but that's a separate issue.

The whole seed selling business is based upon a farce to begin with. These companies make millions of dollars a year on overcharging people for seeds, but that's not enough: they have to corner the feminized seed market, ensuring everyone keeps coming back...like a drug dealer.

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Again, I have to disagree here.

First of all, most breeders are NOT making "millions" per year. Maybe the few biggest ones are (eg Greenhouse), but these are a small minority, at best. Ultimately, the market sets the price for beans, not the sellers. Nobody is "overcharged" here, because these are all voluntary transactions. Breeders can only get for their packs what buyers are willing to pay. That's determined by supply and demand.

Is DNA Genetics reaching into your back pocket and pulling the cash out of your wallet? If you're plunking down your cash, presumably its because you think the beans are worth the asking price. If not, you won't come back for more. In your case, not only have you done that multiple times, but you're trying to do it again. If you think the beans aren't worth what you're paying, then why are you demanding more of them? If you're in fact EAGER to pay their asking price, how can you say you're being "overcharged"?

On fem/regs, again, nobody is forcing anyone to buy fem beans or any other beans. If you don't like DNA's catalog you can take your business elsewhere. If you want to make your own, go to it.

It seriously must be that I'm the only person that isn't happy about the lack of regular seeds from some of the best strains. Oh well, guess roll it up was the wrong place to ask this question to begin with.

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I think you're the only one obsessing about it from DNA.

Personally, I'd love to buy regs of a number of DNA strains, but with so many great regulars out there, I'm not going to lose sleep over this.
I'm also not going to "camp out" on the Attitude site trying to fight in a cyberspace line for a limited release of 30 packs (or whatever). Not worth my time/effort. If/when DNA chooses to earn my business by offering regs, they'll have it. Until then, I'll just take it elsewhere and wish them the best.

Jogro, I just wanted to add that you can trademark a strain, the True OG at elemental wellness is actually trademarked. I don't know what all that entails as this is still not entirely legal but I think in the future I can see royalties or something happening. Especially with the dna testing on strains now.

Patent protection would only encourage shitty crosses. True F1's are the best way to protect your work and they are not particularly easy to reproduce.

Jogro said:

So DNA isn't giving you what you want. Now what?

Nobody in the cannabis se-ed game earns royalties. Feminizing or not feminizing doesn't change this.

Since you know you can breed with fem beans, you also know that releasing fem-onlys wouldn't really stop anyone who wanted to breed with their genetics anyway. Certainly there are plenty of lines created from female plants all the time and many breeders basically do nothing BUT cross female plants and release them as "strains". DNA itself does this. . .the technique is widespread now, and every breeder knows how to do it. If protecting their line were really the goal, why did DNA just release Kosher Kush (which is probably their single highest acclaimed strain to date) in regular form?

IMO, this is a huge problem for breeders, and they "should" be able to own them (at least in a limited way, and for a limited time). Why would anyone want to spend years of their life developing and perfecting new strains, that anyone could just come and steal and remarket for the price of a pack? LACK of patent protection actually inhibits new strain development, but that's a separate issue.

Again, I have to disagree here.

First of all, most breeders are NOT making "millions" per year. Maybe the few biggest ones are (eg Greenhouse), but these are a small minority, at best. Ultimately, the market sets the price for beans, not the sellers. Nobody is "overcharged" here, because these are all voluntary transactions. Breeders can only get for their packs what buyers are willing to pay. That's determined by supply and demand.

Is DNA Genetics reaching into your back pocket and pulling the cash out of your wallet? If you're plunking down your cash, presumably its because you think the beans are worth the asking price. If not, you won't come back for more. In your case, not only have you done that multiple times, but you're trying to do it again. If you think the beans aren't worth what you're paying, then why are you demanding more of them? If you're in fact EAGER to pay their asking price, how can you say you're being "overcharged"?

On fem/regs, again, nobody is forcing anyone to buy fem beans or any other beans. If you don't like DNA's catalog you can take your business elsewhere. If you want to make your own, go to it.

I think you're the only one obsessing about it from DNA.

Personally, I'd love to buy regs of a number of DNA strains, but with so many great regulars out there, I'm not going to lose sleep over this.
I'm also not going to "camp out" on the Attitude site trying to fight in a cyberspace line for a limited release of 30 packs (or whatever). Not worth my time/effort. If/when DNA chooses to earn my business by offering regs, they'll have it. Until then, I'll just take it elsewhere and wish them the best.

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Can you explain to me why you have such an ax to grind? I don't get it. Why do you find it necessary to point by point destroy every post I make? Kind of a dick move guy. You're trying make is sound like I'm just so way off base here, but I'd be willing to be there are more than a few people that agree with me.

If seed breeders were to only offer feminized seeds, it would be MUCH HARDER for the average grower, who doesn't understand how to make feminized seed, to make their own seeds. So that argument is garbage.

And collectively, you're really naive if you don't think that all the seed banks COLLECTIVELY make over a million dollars a year. That's childish to refute.

I have one last question: do you work for DNA Seeds? From the sounds of it, and from how hard you're defending seed companies and DNA specifically, it's really hard to think of another reason why you're trying so hard to refute everything I'm talking about.

OH and btw, I'm not 'losing sleep' over this. I made a thread here for OTHERS (for God sakes, certainly not you...I've heard more than enough from you) on their opinions about this issue.

For some reason, you want to be the end-all of arguments made on this subject. I got your opinion on it champ, thanks a bunch. Maybe go comment on someone else's posts for a while?

Dr. Yo said:

Can you explain to me why you have such an ax to grind? I don't get it. Why do you find it necessary to point by point destroy every post I make? Kind of a dick move guy. You're trying make is sound like I'm just so way off base here, but I'd be willing to be there are more than a few people that agree with me.

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You're not way off base, Doc.
Just add him to your "ignore list" and your experience here at RIU will be so much more pleasant.
That's what I had to do and can vouch for the results.
One of the reasons he's giving you so much grief is because I recently stopped playing his reindeer games.
He's a know it all that won't shut up, think of him as our Cliff Clavin, except less lovable.

Im joining the ignore jogro team to...

you may hate him at times but i haven't been able to call him wrong yet... jogro brings it impartial and logical with the facts to back it most of the time. at times it hits people who are fighting without facts but emotions and this stings a bit, I've been on the receiving end before. BUT all in all i usually look forward to a good jogro post.

if your in his cross hairs take a bite of humble pie and see what he's trying to say, if you still disagree then gracefully disagree with facts or more opinions. opinions dont hold much water in the arena jogro battles in tho, just a warning. in the end a lot of info will get tossed around and usually whatever it is that was being debated comes to a decision of some sort.

Jogro Avoidance Pro tip: dont make concrete claims based on aggravated opinions using the words "I think" or "I feel" to much. easiest way to avoid being picked apart is to think "some supernatural hybrid between a 6th grade teacher and google is going to correct this at some point" and if your lucky enough for jogro to pop in and add to the conversation it will most likely be a pleasant experience, otherwise see above for how to have a pleasant experience even if jogro takes a bite!

Jogro knows his shit. I don't agree with him on all subjects and he tends to ignore any kind of anecdotal evidence - ie: If it's not in journals he doesn't want to hear about it - which I think is a huge mistake. But he brings it with honesty and he's usually not incorrect.

Btw Jogro I recently saw an old medical text indicating cannabis as a treatment for cancer (late 1800's).

HGK420 said:

you may hate him at times but i haven't been able to call him wrong yet... jogro brings it impartial and logical

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See, that's where we differ, because when I've bumped heads with Jogro, he's been wrong 9/10 times.
I tried to listen to the guy, to see where he was coming from, but he can not see anything from anyone else's perspective.
He will agree with you and say "Yes, but..." and then proceed to tell you something completely different that tries to counter your point.
If I didn't know better, I'd swear he's the reincarnated zombie corpse of Hazy Grapes (aka Pokernaut).
Actually, that would explain a lot.

Bad Karma said:

See, that's where we differ, because when I've bumped heads with Jogro, he's been wrong 9/10 times.
I tried to listen to the guy, to see where he was coming from, but he can not see anything from anyone else's perspective.
He will agree with you and say "Yes, but..." and then proceed to tell you something completely different that tries to counter your point.
If I didn't know better, I'd swear he's the reincarnated zombie corpse of Hazy Grapes (aka Pokernaut).
Actually, that would explain a lot.

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His grows are very unimpressive too. For being one of the main advice givers on here, you'd think his plants would be happier, and not all burnt up missing fan leaves and shit.

I totally agree his grows and buds are UNimpressive. He grows strains then pushes them as the best thing out there (greencrack&wwonder) when they are just another of the thousands of strains available and not worth argue over, trust me there weak sauce in todays 25% standards. Who comes on a DNA genetics post and pushes williams wonder? He is half right usually but from a text book not hands on experience.

What's the name of his se-ed company anyway? Lol...


I come hear to read about other growers growing out different strains and discuss them not to have some know it all twit trying to push his ideas and opinions on everybody so he can feel smart.

just stopping in to say i love DNA genetics! their sweet haze, lemon skunk and sour cream were all way above average in buzz, flavor and in the case of lemon skunk, super sexy golden glow that matches it's lemongrass flavor. i'm not a fan of skunk #1/masterkush/blueberry etc. style euphoric but stony buzzes that sour cream shares, but that strain's delicious flavor embarrasses "everyone's favorite" blueberry easily for me by being not only a more authentic flavor, but also much deeper than blueberry's bland "grain of artificial blueberry sugar on your tongue" flavor that just doesn't impress me even as much as fruitier hazes. i should still have a martian mean green and a chocolope fem and want to try their C13 haze and canna lope haze too.

it jus sad that they only offer their best strains as fems that make it harder to breed them without having to pollute them with something else and try to back cross at least 3 generations. i think that's going to be more common in the future as breeders try to lock their gear down from knockoffs.

regardless, i've yet to try a DNA strain that the word schwag should ever be used in the same room for! i love TGA's jack's cleaner 2 more than those three because it's even more visual and especially for it's rare "touchy feely" effect, but i've only tried that one strain so far where DNA has proven consistent to me.

would like to see more smoke reporting for their gear

Thecouchlock said:

Jogro, I just wanted to add that you can trademark a strain, the True OG at elemental wellness is actually trademarked. I don't know what all that entails as this is still not entirely legal but I think in the future I can see royalties or something happening. Especially with the dna testing on strains now.

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I believe there is now legal precedent that you can't trademark strains of drug names within the USA at the Federal level. While the actually did for a short period of time, the US trade and patent office will not accept cannabis strain trademarks any more. This may change at some point in the future, but not anytime soon.

On the other hand, you still potentially CAN do this at the STATE level, and this is probably going to happen more and more in places that permit it. State trademark still potentially offers good protection, for in-state type businesses, and this may be what Elemental Wellness has done.

There is some availability for trademark of strain names in Europe, but obviously jurisdiction there doesn't apply in the USA.

Note that patent and trademark are NOT the same thing, though explaining the difference is beyond the scope of this post.

OGEvilgenius
Patent protection would only encourage shitty crosses. True F1's are the best way to protect your work and they are not particularly easy to reproduce.

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Agreeing entirely with the second part, I don't know about the first one. Filing patents is a complicated and expensive process. People wouldn't do it unless they think they really have something to protect. As a matter of practice, most drug cannabis strains are just recombinations of the same genetics and probably aren't patentable anyway.

Dr. Yo said:

Can you explain to me why you have such an ax to grind? I don't get it. Why do you find it necessary to point by point destroy every post I make? Kind of a dick move guy. You're trying make is sound like I'm just so way off base here, but I'd be willing to be there are more than a few people that agree with me.

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Well, having people agree with you doesn't make you right, and having them disagree doesn't make you wrong. Obviously, I don't mind if people disagree with me (happens pretty often!).

I'm not trying to paint you as a "dick", and I apologize for my tone. That's not my intent, and I'm sincerely sorry. Yes, I do think you're way off base here, and I will explain why, at least as politely as I can.

You're either saying or implying that all the "fem-only" breeders are rich, greedy, and acting in bad faith. They're charging way too much money for their beans, and they're only offering fem onlys to screw their customers. They don't care about their customers, just their pockets. I take issue with all of these things and I don't think any of these stand up to scrutiny.

With DNA in particular, they have gone out of their way to offer regular beans for one of their most popular strains "Kosher Kush", saying explicitly that they are responding to requests from people who want to use it for breeding. If they don't want people to breed with their genetics, why are they releasing regs saying that its for people who want to breed with their genetics? I'm sorry, but your premise is just wrong. Maybe DNA could do a better job of it, but from where I sit, they're at least making some effort to keep the "we want regs" crowd happy.

For some of DNA's strains, the lines are created using only female plants and CANNOT be released as regulars. I just don't see how you can fault them for not putting out regs for lines like this. This isn't unique to DNA, and since more and more breeders are just releasing crosses with "clone only" lines, this is also true of more and more lines in general.

EVERY breeder says the demand for feminized beans is highest and so does every seedbank. That's what the public wants and it also simplifies work and inventory for the breeders. Breeders have physical limits to the number of runs they can do and mother plants they can maintain. The bigger the catalog of the breeder, the harder it is to keep all the lines in stock and the more complicated managing everything becomes. Because of lower economy of scale, running regs AND fems for all their lines is potentially MORE than twice as much work than just all fems. So you really just don't have to invoke bad faith here to explain why any number of breeders are releasing only fems. The buying public prefers these AND its easier for the breeders to do it.

Yes, I "get" that the seed industry is a multimillion dollar industry, but remember, just Attitude alone lists over 100 breeders, and the vast majority of these guys aren't huge players like DNA genetics.

Retail markup on beans is typically around 100% (or more), meaning the actual breeders only get half the retail price (or less), and from THAT they have to deduct their costs (including actual strain development, cost of growing, maintaining parent stock, packaging, marketing) from THAT. They give away a lot of stuff as promotion, and in testing. This means that when all is said and done, the breeders are only seeing a fraction of the top line as profit. In some cases, the breeders are also taking on quite a bit of legal risk too. Bust risk isn't always negligible, high, and at least some of these guys have seen the inside of cells. Some of these guys are working like dogs and barely making ends meet.

So yeah, it rubs me the wrong way when you say that the beans are overpriced and these guys are sitting there counting their money while you're overpaying for their product. I fully "get" not wanting to pay $20 a bean for feminized beans. . .and I agree with you, in absolute terms that's a lot of money. But again, the breeders here aren't the ones setting the prices. The prices are mostly that high because of the black market nature of the business.


-Continued

Continued:

If seed breeders were to only offer feminized seeds, it would be MUCH HARDER for the average grower, who doesn't understand how to make feminized seed, to make their own seeds. So that argument is garbage.

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Sure, I agree that for any given line a lack of regs that makes it harder for the casual grower to make their own se-eds from that line.

But despite that, the overwhelming majority of these normal growers prefer feminized se-eds. Why is that? They're stupid or being duped? The answer is that the majority of these normal growers simply don't WANT to make beans, and they don't want to do gender selection. They just want to grow their plants.

Maybe they "should" be interested in these things. . .that's a different question. . .but they're not. If the buying public is largely not interested in buying regulars, how can you fault DNA for not providing them?

Meanwhile fem only doesn't really stop any breeder from ripping off a line, nor any sophisticated grower. If you want to do this, there isn't anything really stopping you but maybe the relatively low cost of some reversal chemicals. So why are you complaining? What you're saying, in effect, is that you're mad at DNA for not making it super-easy for you to copy their lines. While you're right that they are, I don't think they're doing it with that in mind, and I'm just not sympathetic.

I have one last question: do you work for DNA Seeds? From the sounds of it, and from how hard you're defending seed companies and DNA specifically, it's really hard to think of another reason why you're trying so hard to refute everything I'm talking about.

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Good one!

No, I don't work for DNA or any other se-ed company (no, not even Sickmeds). The issue here is that I know a few small breeders, and trust me, life is NOT exactly a "bowl of cherries" for these guys. These are the guys busting their butts so that YOU can have first class genetics at home, mailed right to your door for less than the cost of a nice restaurant dinner for two. So again, when you start bashing them as greedy, out of touch, etc, again, that just rubs me the wrong way.

On DNA, to be clear, I do not know either Don or Aaron personally, nor have I even met them. My opinion of DNA is that these two are good breeders, but EXCELLENT businessmen. Again like you, I'd love to buy regs from DNA, but eh. . .there are others out there.

For some reason, you want to be the end-all of arguments made on this subject. I got your opinion on it champ, thanks a bunch. Maybe go comment on someone else's posts for a while?

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Fair enough.

I do want to respond to one more thing (not by you) but after that I'll respect your wishes, and honestly, I hope you DO get the DNA regs you're looking for. Feel free to add me to the "ignore" club if you like.

Dr. Yo said:

That's what I don't get; in the last 5 years, have people gotten that much lazier that they just can't deal with male plants? Seems like there's been a paradigm shift sometime in the last 5 years where more and more seed companies are carrying exclusively feminized seeds.

Doesn't anyone have the inclination to make their own seed anymore? I guess everyone is growing for profit these days, and the sooner they can get the product harvested and out in the streets/Medical Marijuana clinics the more money in their pocket.

I know selection can be tricky, but from day 1, all I've ever wanted to be was self-sufficient and not dependent on an outside source for quality genetics. Once obtained, I'd like to have the preference to be able to continue the line on my own...if I'm skilled/savvy enough to breed a quality F1 from the source-beans.

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I just seeded my crop of DNA Pure Afghan (with a DNA Pure Afghan male) and the three CBD Crew Outdoor mixes with the DNA Male (he was gorgeous, strong and stinky). I also seeded my C99's with Bodhi's Sunshine Daydream. Another spectacular looking male. I was considering reversing the Cindys but decided to try the Bodhi male he looked so nice.

I took copius clones off everyone so I'll reverse and produce some femmed seeds as well. Pot is like Skittles, taste the rainbow

Bad Karma said:

He's a know it all that won't shut up, think of him as our Cliff Clavin, except less lovable.

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I love the analogy. You're right, I'm definitely less lovable than Cliff. I'll also take this as a suggestion to tone it down a bit, and act accordingly. Thanks for the "wakeup".

booms111 said:

Im joining the ignore jogro team to[o]...

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Thank you for your mature response.

Uncle Pirate said:

His grows are very unimpressive too. For being one of the main advice givers on here, you'd think his plants would be happier, and not all burnt up missing fan leaves and shit.

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Thank you for noticing. I think you're referring to my Williams Wonder grow, and just to be clear, I mentioned specifically that I had pruned off all the fan leaves for the picture in question.

booms111 said:

He grows strains then pushes them as the best thing out there (greencrack&wwonder) when they are just another of the thousands of strains available and not worth argue over, trust me there weak sauce in todays 25% standards. Who comes on a DNA genetics post and pushes williams wonder? He is half right usually but from a text book not hands on experience.

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As you probably know, DNA Genetics ITSELF sells an auto-version of Williams Wonder they've bred and call "60 Day Wonder". If Williams Wonder sucks so bad, with so many others available, why did DNA choose it it as the genetic basis for their first commercial autoflower? Is it possible that DNA sees something here that maybe you don't?

Anyway I didn't mention Williams Wonder because I was trying to compare it to the DNA lines or "push" it on anybody. . .where did that come from? You said you could take any two 20% THC females, cross them and beat ANYTHING out there in regular se-ed form today. I specifically mentioned this as a counter-example it happens I have a lot of "hands on experience" with. Its a regular inbred "old school" line that's fairly consistent and will potentially give you over 20% THC if you grow it right, that's all. IMO, it probably IS as good if not better than any random pollen chuck between two 20% female lines.

Honestly, I don't really care one way or the other if you don't like this one, that's your opinion. I also completely believe you when you say the buds you smoked sucked. But I do take issue when you're effectively calling me and the breeder here liars, especially when I can back up my position with facts. In this case, the THC content of this line isn't a question of opinion; the numbers are the numbers, and the third party lab results effectively back up Sickmeds claims. You say the line can't sell. . .well in Seattle it DOES sell, and at top shelf prices. If you say it "shouldn't" I'd actually agree with that. IMO its nuts that this costs the same as Girl Scout Cookies and the like on the dispensary shelf. . .but the fact is, it does.

On Green Crack S1, I've also never "pushed" that line on anyone. . .EVER. YOU were the one who brought that up here, not me!

The reason I asked you to explain what an S1 is, is because of your remarks that this wasn't as good as the "clone only" and that I don't know what an S1 is. If you knew what an S1 was, you would know that S1s of "clone only"s are virtually never as good as the original clone only, hence the term "clone only". OF COURSE this isn't as good as the clone only!

No, actually I was referring to all three grow links in your sig. Those plants are crispier than my hair was in 1988.

https://www.rollitup.org/smoke-reports/706776-60-day-wonder-60-day.html Ill pass...when you ask DNA about autos they sorta laugh then say there good for outdoor growers to have a early harvest. There just producing them because of the Auto fans out there. Im not going to go back and read your long ass posts but you do talk about Green Crack all the time and Williams Wonder. We both know what a S1 is but I actually make them you just talk about them....Where ever Willams wonders going for top dollar its probably because you sell it to them and talk it up like you do here. I dont even think Sickmeds has the real Green Crack by the way. He probably got a S1 himself. All the sickmeds S1s smelled and looked similar from pink to purple buds. They were very homogeneous and all weak potency. Ive seen his grow breeding area and im not sure why you think so highly of Reds work? He isnt doing mass population grows to find the best but you give him credit like he does. Sorry but he's a pollen chucker by your standard. I dont like GSC by the way but that just me lots love them some cookies.