How far to keep your LED's / Quantum Boards from the canopy?

ComfortCreator

Well-Known Member
HLG never has answered a single email i have sent either...i get my info from their site and a few dedicated threads here where robin and a few others have addressed this directly several times.

Options for lenses are shown on HLG's site, right now. Look for them. About $6 each. How much they diffuse if at all I cant say.

My point was this...Samsung designed the chips specifically to have a 120 degree beam angle. They could change it...they don't. They are the engineers behind everything about the chips.

The boards are designed knowing all the specs including the beam angle. This allows them to have boards that are used at certain distances. More boards at lower power allows for more even coverage and closer to the canopy. Since many people just want plug and play....HLG until just recently has not offered a fixture designed specifically for this. That new Scorpio is designed for this purpose. 6 boards spread out on a single fixture. Check the specs and you will see what Im talking about.

Can you diffuse each board with a cover to diffuse them? Sure...but they have multi board slates already. So unless i wanted only 1 board diffused across a big space or very close to the canopy...i wouldnt do it. Any other situation allows me to run more efficiently by simply dimming more boards attached to the same power supply.
 

Northwood

Well-Known Member
Any other situation allows me to run more efficiently by simply dimming more boards attached to the same power supply.
That's kinda what I'm doing now. I have 4 kingbrite 240W V4's running in a 5X5. Honestly I was a little disappointed even with this for coverage at over 100% higher distance above the canopy than my old setup (about 20" in veg). The corners of the tent are much less lit than where the lights are directly above, and I do have them pretty evenly spaced out in the tent. And it turns out I'm running about 4 degrees Celsius warmer at this cycle stage (running about 70% now) and I'm using more power with more watts. WTF?

Efficiency may be better with these fancy diodes, but it's costing me more money to run, more heat to extract, and when my plants are small I'm lighting up areas of the tent I shouldn't be. Here's my old setup: https://www.rollitup.org/t/my-budget-5x5-setup.982183/

Granted I haven't flowered with them yet and I've only had this new setup for a couple of weeks, and I'm old and change comes hard these days. Took me a long time to try any LED and switch from HPS in the beginning. Yield will tell, but up to now I'm not as impressed as I thought I'd be. They look cool though.
 

hybridway2

Well-Known Member

Northwood

Well-Known Member

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Diffusers are great in portrait photography. However in a grow for those using regular lightbulbs, generally the plastic diffuser is removed increasing light output considerably according to those who tested it, from 20 to 30% depending on bulb.
 

hybridway2

Well-Known Member
Diffusers are great in portrait photography. However in a grow for those using regular lightbulbs, generally the plastic diffuser is removed increasing light output considerably according to those who tested it, from 20 to 30% depending on bulb.
Read the links brah.
 

Northwood

Well-Known Member
Read the links brah.
Yeah I did, so 85% so a 15% loss with PMMA (whatever that is). Clear = 10%, frosted = another 5% = 15% total. I think I got that. So why are we sacrificing lumens at all with whatever that is? I sure you're familiar with the CFL/LED mega thread on icmag, and people have tested LED household bulbs with both the frosted globe removed, and in place. It seems the consensus of estimates is what I said. And if your LED is distributed equally across your tent to provide equal PPFD from corner to center, wtf does a diffuser add to the equation? Maybe you can explain that "brah" (whatever that means too).
 

hybridway2

Well-Known Member
Yeah I did, so 85% so a 15% loss with PMMA (whatever that is). Clear = 10%, frosted = another 5% = 15% total. I think I got that. So why are we sacrificing lumens at all with whatever that is? I sure you're familiar with the CFL/LED mega thread on icmag, and people have tested LED household bulbs with both the frosted globe removed, and in place. It seems the consensus of estimates is what I said. And if your LED is distributed equally across your tent to provide equal PPFD from corner to center, wtf does a diffuser add to the equation? Maybe you can explain that "brah" (whatever that means too).
I'm good! Take care, ill do me.
 

ComfortCreator

Well-Known Member
That's kinda what I'm doing now. I have 4 kingbrite 240W V4's running in a 5X5. Honestly I was a little disappointed even with this for coverage at over 100% higher distance above the canopy than my old setup (about 20" in veg). The corners of the tent are much less lit than where the lights are directly above, and I do have them pretty evenly spaced out in the tent. And it turns out I'm running about 4 degrees Celsius warmer at this cycle stage (running about 70% now) and I'm using more power with more watts. WTF?

Efficiency may be better with these fancy diodes, but it's costing me more money to run, more heat to extract, and when my plants are small I'm lighting up areas of the tent I

That's kinda what I'm doing now. I have 4 kingbrite 240W V4's running in a 5X5. Honestly I was a little disappointed even with this for coverage at over 100% higher distance above the canopy than my old setup (about 20" in veg). The corners of the tent are much less lit than where the lights are directly above, and I do have them pretty evenly spaced out in the tent. And it turns out I'm running about 4 degrees Celsius warmer at this cycle stage (running about 70% now) and I'm using more power with more watts. WTF?

Efficiency may be better with these fancy diodes, but it's costing me more money to run, more heat to extract, and when my plants are small I'm lighting up areas of the tent I shouldn't be. Here's my old setup: https://www.rollitup.org/t/my-budget-5x5-setup.982183/

Granted I haven't flowered with them yet and I've only had this new setup for a couple of weeks, and I'm old and change comes hard these days. Took me a long time to try any LED and switch from HPS in the beginning. Yield will tell, but up to now I'm not as impressed as I thought I'd be. They look cool though.
I have 8 hlg v1 boards on 2 4 board heatsinks in a 5x5 useable space. You are using 700watts already in veg? Something sounds off to me. Im running about 450watts at probably 30inches or more and measure 25k lux. I will likely leave the height and allow them to grow up to the boards. Are you blasting the heck out of your girls??
 

ComfortCreator

Well-Known Member

So i looked at the 2nd link...you do realize he says, we are in a greenhouse, using the free sun, why wouldn't we diffuse it?....meaning...they have no diffusion in their space without some sort of diffusers. The sun comes in at whatever angle during the day and without diffusion they cant get nearly the same even spread...indoors the light does not change angles...

All these LED chips have it built in. The board just spaces and repeats them so the coverage can be even at the right height.

I totally respect you doing your thing, Im just trying to say you are diffusing them twice...i think to get more even coverage. If you want to discuss any further let me know how many boards in what size space but if the discussion is getting annoying we can move on.
 

Northwood

Well-Known Member
Are you blasting the heck out of your girls??
Yeah I'm trying to blast them a little bit, at least as much as my old setup at this stage. Because most of the space is now occupied by my plant, I'd have about 65% to 70% of my bulbs on right now before. I was running a max of about 840 watts before with everything on. But of course the lights were twice as close because coverage wasn't an issue.
 

ComfortCreator

Well-Known Member
Yeah I'm trying to blast them a little bit, at least as much as my old setup at this stage. Because most of the space is now occupied by my plant, I'd have about 65% to 70% of my bulbs on right now before. I was running a max of about 840 watts before with everything on. But of course the lights were twice as close because coverage wasn't an issue.
Send me a pm if you want to discuss further, i am enjoying the convo but dont want to hijack here...
 

hybridway2

Well-Known Member
So i looked at the 2nd link...you do realize he says, we are in a greenhouse, using the free sun, why wouldn't we diffuse it?....meaning...they have no diffusion in their space without some sort of diffusers. The sun comes in at whatever angle during the day and without diffusion they cant get nearly the same even spread...indoors the light does not change angles...

All these LED chips have it built in. The board just spaces and repeats them so the coverage can be even at the right height.

I totally respect you doing your thing, Im just trying to say you are diffusing them twice...i think to get more even coverage. If you want to discuss any further let me know how many boards in what size space but if the discussion is getting annoying we can move on.
Yes, can be done both ways. For instance an HLG 65 OR 100 Board with the spread diodes & a ceiling full is one way. 288 clustered boards have been doing well with x4 equally spaced in a 4x4, hung high enough though I feel diffusion would help them as well. If they were bigger in dimensions then they'd be even better.
Now say its the new Diablo 650R or the 550 model, all in one board. Or the Trinity, 96's, HO- COBs, Those I feel would do magnificently diffused & there would be about 1/4 of these threads going on. Because as I showed on my thread with pics. Its not just about distance when showed covered 96's pushing 1250 umol on the plant & it was healthy n flowering like a beast, then showed 700umol on the same plant (other side) via the other 96's , uncovered & the plant was stunted & yellowing in that section.
It was a documented. Either on my "LED vs HPS" growing thread I'm locked out of using or my"Amare Bar-8" thread that has mysteriously disappeared.
Its not like I speak with no experience in both situations. My 96 covers are getting a wet-sand as are my Bar-8 Proto covers. All cobs are getting diffusion plates of different types to experiment. There are several options that would blow your mind out there with 95% transmittance or close. Ill take whatever light-losses I have to take in order to accomplish up to a 30% higher yeild, healthier plants, prob no purple stems, 200% more use of the light. I have yet to fully test to see how close I'll align with previous Sites or documented tests.
Hey, that's just me, I'm not saying to encase your diodes if they're not designed to be. Causing overheating & losing longevity. More like if you watch Shane's video from MiGro about his HLG, QB review. He built a suspended clear glass cover with like a 1" gap or more between it & the diodes. Just like that is how I'm doing mine, but sanding it. For early testing for the Big QB's I bought 2x4' pixilated drop-ceiling light covers to be set in a drop-ceiling setting, suspended off the diodes by at least 1.5". He got the idea off HLG 's website.
But, I have no fight about any of it, just sharing my experiences for those who care to listen. Just one experience in a test & a few yrs struggling with QB's prior. I had the first QB's with Lenses. Oh boy, they fried x2 of my plants before I took them off & those are like 4 evenly spread in a 4x4.20201008_005130.jpg
Have a great day & safe Halloween. Going to set-up a bunch of burples for the light show along with 90• lenses COBs/Monos arrays up into the sky like Bat-Man. bongsmilie20201013_223242.jpg
Some SBS Action if anyone's interested.
 
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ComfortCreator

Well-Known Member
Yes, can be done both ways. For instance an HLG 65 OR 100 Board with the spread diodes & a ceiling full is one way. 288 clustered boards have been doing well with x4 equally spaced in a 4x4, hung high enough though I feel diffusion would help them as well. If they were bigger in dimensions then they'd be even better.
Now say its the new Diablo 650R or the 550 model, all in one board. Or the Trinity, 96's, HO- COBs, Those I feel would do magnificently diffused & there would be about 1/4 of these threads going on. Because as I showed on my thread with pics. Its not just about distance when showed covered 96's pushing 1250 umol on the plant & it was healthy n flowering like a beast, then showed 700umol on the same plant (other side) via the other 96's , uncovered & the plant was stunted & yellowing in that section.
It was a documented. Either on my "LED vs HPS" growing thread I'm locked out of using or my"Amare Bar-8" thread that has mysteriously disappeared.
Its not like I speak with no experience in both situations. My 96 covers are getting a wet-sand as are my Bar-8 Proto covers. All cobs are getting diffusion plates of different types to experiment. There are several options that would blow your mind out there with 95% transmittance or close. Ill take whatever light-losses I have to take in order to accomplish up to a 30% higher yeild, healthier plants, prob no purple stems, 200% more use of the light. I have yet to fully test to see how close I'll align with previous Sites or documented tests.
Hey, that's just me, I'm not saying to encase your diodes if they're not designed to be. Causing overheating & losing longevity. More like if you watch Shane's video from MiGro about his HLG, QB review. He built a suspended clear glass cover with like a 1" gap or more between it & the diodes. Just like that is how I'm doing mine, but sanding it. For early testing for the Big QB's I bought 2x4' pixilated drop-ceiling light covers to be set in a drop-ceiling setting, suspended off the diodes by at least 1.5". He got the idea off HLG 's website.
But, I have no fight about any of it, just sharing my experiences for those who care to listen. Just one experience in a test & a few yrs struggling with QB's prior. I had the first QB's with Lenses. Oh boy, they fried x2 of my plants before I took them off & those are like 4 evenly spread in a 4x4.View attachment 4713922
Have a great day & safe Halloween. Going to set-up a bunch of burples for the light show along with 90• lenses COBs/Monos arrays up into the sky like Bat-Man. bongsmilieView attachment 4713896
Some SBS Action if anyone's interested.
I appreciate your ideas and have no issues with them. You obviously are very into max diffusion and I understand that.

Many growers, esp those with cobs have them specifically for penetration through the canopy. It seems to me the more diffusion you use the less penetration you will get, which is the tradeoff we all know is there.

Thanks again for sharing it sounds like you really enjoy the process.
 

hybridway2

Well-Known Member
I appreciate your ideas and have no issues with them. You obviously are very into max diffusion and I understand that.

Many growers, esp those with cobs have them specifically for penetration through the canopy. It seems to me the more diffusion you use the less penetration you will get, which is the tradeoff we all know is there.

Thanks again for sharing it sounds like you really enjoy the process.
I'll stop now but No, its exactly the opposite. The diffusion causes an engulfing of the plant with light providing further density down below.
Be well, just had to clarify that misconception.
I'll share in a dedicated thread soon. You're invited.
 

ComfortCreator

Well-Known Member
I'll stop now but No, its exactly the opposite. The diffusion causes an engulfing of the plant with light providing further density down below.
Be well, just had to clarify that misconception.
I'll share in a dedicated thread soon. You're invited.
Looking forward to it!
There has to be a point where more diffusion becomes less effective, it will be interesting to see how it plays out.
 

FakePres

Member
I'll stop now but No, its exactly the opposite. The diffusion causes an engulfing of the plant with light providing further density down below.
Be well, just had to clarify that misconception.
I'll share in a dedicated thread soon. You're invited.
Some interesting possibilities, hybridway. Thanks for sharing this information.
 

Blossom21

Active Member
I'll stop now but No, its exactly the opposite. The diffusion causes an engulfing of the plant with light providing further density down below.
Be well, just had to clarify that misconception.
I'll share in a dedicated thread soon. You're invited.
IMO there definitely should be a dedicated thread to diffusion so people could share their own tests and results too. Or will you use the thread you linked before (6x different lights comparison) with that purpose in mind? Would wanna know all the details about the materials used and going more specific, like the material distance to the LED's and how thick/frosted it is, and maybe even techniques how to DIY to mimic the results if you wanna share. Good luck mate, gonna be following your journal too!
 

hybridway2

Well-Known Member
IMO there definitely should be a dedicated thread to diffusion so people could share their own tests and results too. Or will you use the thread you linked before (6x different lights comparison) with that purpose in mind? Would wanna know all the details about the materials used and going more specific, like the material distance to the LED's and how thick/frosted it is, and maybe even techniques how to DIY to mimic the results if you wanna share. Good luck mate, gonna be following your journal too!
Yes, next round will be the diffussion testing. It will be it's own thread/journal & will have all details listed. Looking forward to it myself.
Glad you're interested, see you around n happy growing!
 
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